Can Christianity be recreated to work as a metaphor ?

What needs do mythology and religion serve in today's world and in ancient times? Here we discuss the relationship between mythology, religion and science from mythological, religious and philosophical viewpoints.

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jonsjourney
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Post by jonsjourney »

The Buddhist concept of nothingness and no-self are hard to grasp. But the more you talk about it - the farther you get away from it. So we end up laughing about it and moving on. Actually I'm more of a quasi-Buddhist as I have trouble with the whole re-incarnation thing. -Dionysus
I like that....Quasi-Buddhist. I can identify with that idea, and I also have some problems with the reincarnation thing, but it does provide a grounding for ethics, which any religious system does require, so it makes sense from that perspective. If you consider reincarnation as being more of a "reintegration" it makes better sense, to me. We come from "star stuff" and return to become part of the whole process again...like a drop of water entering the ocean (or vice versa!).

It is the ego which holds tight to the soul. This sure seems like a striving toward permanence in what is clearly an impermanent world to me. I do see why this is unnerving to so many, especially here in the West where we have been told ad infinitum that there is a "ghost in the machine".

I do not think it is coincidence that Joseph Campbell found himself closer and closer to Eastern (particularly Hindu) concepts as the end of his life drew nearer. He was a pretty sophisticated and intellectual man and the rich and deeply textural mythologies of India (and Buddhism, Taoism, Zen Buddhism) require a pretty open and sophisticated person to integrate their concepts without compromising the reality of being a Westerner living in the West. 8)

But I have led this conversation astray a bit...there is the East/West thread to discuss this!

Peace~
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Andreas
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Post by Andreas »

Needless to say the hardest thing to do is reawaken the power of the symbols. This is almost impossible if you ask me with the current understanding we possess.

So yesterday I had a conversation with a friend. He seems to be concertizing the whole thing. We ended up discussing exactly the subject of this thread. His problem was that he has lost any meaningful appreciation of the symbols and most important of the message..

He tried to justify and prove to me historically that if something didn't exist then the idea and the message is not real. I tried to explain to him all the cool things I learned here and from Campbell but scientific thought was too overwhelming. And I am not saying it is bad however still it does not mean we should lose communication with our inner selves.

What I discover was that in order to reawaken the symbols somehow we need to find something that is meaningful to the individual. So my friends plays a lot of video games which some of them have some amazing stories believe it or not. And I tried to explain to him the concept of integration and all that cool stuff through the game. I think I saw something changing in him as far as perception goes... He even said to me that he never thought it like that, now if he really agreed is another matter.

Anyway I find more and more and I think even with myself that the problem does not exist in the religions but in concertizing the metaphor. I think everyone wants to find some sort of symbolism that is meaningful but knowledge is burning us.

:)
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jonsjourney
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Post by jonsjourney »

Anyway I find more and more and I think even with myself that the problem does not exist in the religions but in concertizing (I think you mean concretizing? -JJ) the metaphor. I think everyone wants to find some sort of symbolism that is meaningful but knowledge is burning us. -Andreas
Sometimes I think that the symbol is not only lost because we are so rational (ie. scientific) in our thinking, but more so because much of the Western idea of religion comes in a pre-packaged, spoon-fed form. There is little, if any, room for one to come to a realization while attending a religious service if the message is given to us and we never come to our own insight.

Joe said he liked to attend a Catholic Mass that was in Latin. Why? Well, I do not have the specific quote available right now, but I think he said that it provided an opportunity to just be "present" and take in the imagery and become more absorbed in the various symbols in the sanctuary. He was not a Catholic any more, but he could still appreciate the meaningfulness of the symbols and the process of the mass.

If we, as individuals, do not come to our own insight, we learn almost nothing. We are simply "mouthing" the words like robots. Part of the problem, in my view, is a lack of education (at least here in the USA) in Mythology and comparative religious thought. Mythology has too often been shelved as simply an exploration of Roman and Greek gods. But to study religion, we must understand mythology. If we do not try to understand the origin of a thought, it's destination runs the risk of irrelevance, which is where we seem to be heading. The result of uneducated religious practice/understanding is blind faith and fanaticism, something that appears to be growing in parts of the world. If we come to understand how so many ways of thinking about life are linked by commonalities based in mythology we can begin to see ourselves in The Other, and the other.
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Post by Dionysus »

What I discover was that in order to reawaken the symbols somehow we need to find something that is meaningful to the individual. So my friends plays a lot of video games which some of them have some amazing stories believe it or not. And I tried to explain to him the concept of integration and all that cool stuff through the game. I think I saw something changing in him as far as perception goes... He even said to me that he never thought it like that, now if he really agreed is another matter.
Mythology is the language we use to describe the indescribable - any language. Break down the walls. Communicate. Good!

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Post by Andreas »

Hey everyone,

Jons yeah I meant concretizing, sorry. :D.
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

jonsjourney
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Post by jonsjourney »

Jons yeah I meant concretizing, sorry. -Andreas
No apologies! I am not even sure if it is "officially" a word! But Joe used it, so that is good enough for me! :wink:
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

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Post by Stone_Giant »

Hi All,

I was going to start a new thread on something that I have been pondering on of late but this thread looks like the place to float it - hope the discussion hasn't gone too cold. :(

What I've been thinking about is the symbol of Christ suffering on the cross and what it's universal psychological attraction might be. Some churches have a particularly bloody representation of this christian symbol and it is raised to extreme heights in the work of the Spanish sculptors and artists of the 16-17th centuries. I went to see this > http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/event ... -made-real < last year and its realism was unsettling.

So why have Christians down the ages found this image of a man nailed to a cross (or being flailed alive) so relevant to their own lives? The article that Cindy B posted was quite illuminating on the subject:
From this psychological perspective, the classical “imitation of Christ” would not mean that we are to try to “copy” Jesus, but that we are to live our individual lives as fully, as authentically, and as obediently (to a greater Source) as Jesus lived his. Psychologically, this is the individuation process; theologically, it is the process of redemption and sanctification.

Applying this perspective to what it might mean to take up one’s own cross as Jesus invited his followers to do, Edward Edinger suggests: “To take up one’s own cross would mean to accept and consciously realize one’s own particular pattern of wholeness.” (Edinger, Ego and Archetype, p.135) This invariably involves being suspended between successive pairs of opposites (like a veritable crucifixion), with its attendant suffering, and repeated death/rebirth experiences of the ego as it learns to bow to the demands of the Self.
I also feel that Buddhism's 2nd Great Truth might also point to the reason why Christianity's "Front Cover" depicts a crucified person...
The Second Noble Truth relates to the cause of suffering. Gautama believed the root cause of suffering is desire. It is the craving for wealth, happiness, and other forms of selfish enjoyment which cause suffering. These cravings can never be satisfied for they are rooted in ignorance.
To put this Buddhist viewpoint it in a more Christian context, Desire and Fulfillment are the two pairs of opposites, the right and left nails through our hands, between which we are crucified....maybe? We are always at a transition point between the two and never actually arrive, so-called "fulfillment" brings us back to the point of desire again (desiring something else).

Therefore "Suffering" is the overwhelming condition of mankind.... and so it becomes the defualt starting point for any religious doctrine. Giving a crucified person top-billing in your manifesto is then tantamount to saying "Is this you? Then come on in we've got the answer.."

Ah well - think I'll put the kettle on now, I'm gasping for a cup of tea.

Yours, as ever Stone Giant.
Want to wash away my sins, in the presence of my friends. (Arcade Fire)

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Post by Neoplato »

Therefore "Suffering" is the overwhelming condition of mankind.... and so it becomes the defualt starting point for any religious doctrine. Giving a crucified person top-billing in your manifesto is then tantamount to saying "Is this you? Then come on in we've got the answer.."-Stone Giant
I think you hit the "nail on the head" there Stone Giant. :wink:

Also, we have the "tree" symbolized by "the cross" indicating the "rebirth". Yes..the more I think about it, the more it seems that the "founders of Christianity" knew what they were doing when it came to the symbolism and the metaphors.

I just wonder if they knew that over time it would become literal and take on a "life" of its own. :?
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Post by Stone_Giant »

Neo -

The tree metaphor is an interesting one, and crops up in other myth/religious systems. Take Odin hanging on the World Ash Yggadrasil for 9 nights and days in order to win the mead of poetry, or Prometheus, bound to a pillar, (effectively a stone tree). The common thread is of course suffering. The best short exposition of the World tree (I think) is that it represents a "template for the structure of reality." Expanding on this, if you take the world tree as a form of the world navel(axis mundi), it gains even more dimensions of metaphor or metaphysical function - not only rebirth/renewal. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navel_of_the_World

On further reflection, I think the Christ/Cross metaphor is a powerful one because it works in several ways..is in fact a collection of metaphors. i.e. He suffers physically, is totally helpless, is literally pulled in several directions, is held by nails of iron, is mocked by being made to wear a crown of thorns, is pierced in the head(mind) by the same device, is fixed to the cross which represents amongst other things the world tree(navel,centre,axis etc), has a spear wound which leaks blood ( a libation/sacrificial blood, offered to heal the sick earth) and so forth.

Another thought.....when Judeo/Christianity is compard to Buddhism and Islam, we don't see a similar iconography. Buddhism is most often represented by Guatama sitting in a state of meditative bliss ( quite often under a tree though...) and Islam forbids images of the Prophet altogether.

Campbell has commented on the dynamic nature of Christianity, how it allowed Western culture to question the status quo of the human condition... and change it. The older religions (especially of the ancient East) have always advocated calm acceptance of one's fate on this earth - a much more passive approach. Perhaps the prominenence given to the "suffering saviour" in Christianity is part and parcel of its dynamism. Shining a spotlight on the suffering associated with being alive is surely a precursor to saying "Well why don't we do something about?" This sort of attitude underlies the drive towards change, (perceived) necessity being the mother of invention. In the case of the West this has resulted in an explosion of scientific experimentation and development.

One last comment: Historically it was verboten to inspect Christianity( or any religious system) in this way, and I would hate to rob it of what beneficial power it still has in the world - after all, it still sustains and brings comfort to many people, but we Campbellians surely have learnt our teacher's message - to "think in metaphor". This means marrying left and right brains, unifying reason and instinct, logic and emotion. Employ this approach to religion and culture, and a world of meaning opens up, and such a depth of understanding is the key to greater compassion towards our fellows. Though we, of all people are unlikely to meet them, I think we are actually on the side of the Angels.

Regards,
Stone Giant
Want to wash away my sins, in the presence of my friends. (Arcade Fire)

jonsjourney
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Post by jonsjourney »

Another thought.....when Judeo/Christianity is compard to Buddhism and Islam, we don't see a similar iconography. Buddhism is most often represented by Guatama sitting in a state of meditative bliss ( quite often under a tree though...) and Islam forbids images of the Prophet altogether. -StoneGiant
Good Point. The image of the crucified Jesus is certainly a motivator to action...it may even make a person angry. In modern churches that use electronic media during services, the image of the crucified Jesus is dissolved into the background of images containing starving children and natural disasters when the time comes to ask for tithing. Sad and foreboding music is mixed in for maximum effect. Guilt is evoked, after all...how bad can our lives be compared to that, right? Giving is easy after that.

The image of the Buddha is one who has moved beyond the suffering caused by the drives of fear and desire. It is a face of equanimity. The message...."don't worry, nothing is happening". It is a recognition, not necessarily of powerlessness, but of acceptance of what is. Some mistake this as passivity, or indifference, but this is obviously a misunderstanding of the nature of the Buddha's message.

Islam, while prohibiting visual icons other than writing, has no shortage of written descriptions of heaven and hell, which ironically must create a visual image in the mind. Does that constitute a sin? The name Islam essentially means "the peaceful surrender to God". It is about rules, not images. One submits to God and does not question the authority of Muhammad as the last messenger of God, or the Koran as the literal written words of God. Very strict. Not much, if any, wiggle room....much like the Old Testament of Judaism and computers! (one of my favorite Campbell quotes). One interesting thing about Islam, though, is while it is so very strict and closed in terms of interpretation, one is free to worship as a Christian or Buddhist as long as one pays a tax (in lieu of paying Poor Due as a worshiping Muslim) if you live in a Muslim society.

From the Koran..."Let there be no compulsion in religion" (2:257).

Interesting.
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Post by Andreas »

....much like the Old Testament of Judaism and computers! (one of my favorite Campbell quotes).
:lol:

Nice one!
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Post by Neoplato »

we Campbellians surely have learnt our teacher's message - to "think in metaphor". This means marrying left and right brains, unifying reason and instinct, logic and emotion. Employ this approach to religion and culture, and a world of meaning opens up, and such a depth of understanding is the key to greater compassion towards our fellows. –Stone Giant
Here’s a thought I never had before. Is the achievement of the ability to “think in metaphor”, in itself, a rite of passage? :shock:

Instinctually, I want to say yes…but I never considered it before. Thanks for the notion SG! :D :D
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Post by jonsjourney »

Here’s a thought I never had before. Is the achievement of the ability to “think in metaphor”, in itself, a rite of passage? -Neo
Why not?

It may even be, as StoneGiant suggested, the apex of understanding the human experience both in our day to day reality, and in our metaphorical (mythological) references. The mistake so often made, and always expressed by Joe, was taking the metaphor as a concrete reality, rather than seeing the more ''universal" human experience contained within it. Some experiences may be universal in some ways, but do not necessarily point to some "fact" or "truth" that can be solidified and turned into a definitive path toward enlightenment.

Once we have entered the forest alone and come back with a better sense of the human experience, the myths make more sense. One can no longer watch a movie, read a book, listen to a piece of music, or gaze upon a piece of art without that individual journey, which has been informed by that universal mythological message, now better informing our interpretation of all of these human experiences.

They add fuel to the meaning making fire within.

Maybe when we are able to pass the rite of connecting the right and the left, we have taken a big step toward transcending the pairs of opposites and seeing the whole.
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Post by Dionysus »

Once we have entered the forest alone and come back with a better sense of the human experience, the myths make more sense. One can no longer watch a movie, read a book, listen to a piece of music, or gaze upon a piece of art without that individual journey, which has been informed by that universal mythological message, now better informing our interpretation of all of these human experiences.

They add fuel to the meaning making fire within.

Maybe when we are able to pass the rite of connecting the right and the left, we have taken a big step toward transcending the pairs of opposites and seeing the whole.
Very nice! Thanks, JJ. Oh, and thanks, too, Neo. SG, Good post. Thanks all.

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Post by Neoplato »

And staying on that note...
The left hemisphere specializes in analytical thought. It is responsible for dealing with "hard" facts such as abstractions, structure, discipline, rules, time sequences, mathematics, categorizing, logic, rationality, and deductive reasoning. It is also responsible for details, knowledge, definitions, planning, goals, words, productivity, efficiency, science, technology, stability, extraversion, physical activity, and the right side of the body. Left hemisphere ability is the predominant focus in school and society.

The right hemisphere specializes in "softer" aspects than the left hemisphere. The right hemisphere is responsible for intuition, feelings, sensitivity, emotions, daydreaming, visualizing, creativity, color, spatial awareness, and first impressions. It is also responsible for rhythm, spontaneity, impulsiveness, the physical senses, risk-taking, flexibility and variety, learning by experience, relationships, mysticism, play and sports, introversion, humor, motor skills, and the left side of the body (the old belief that left-handed people are more creative does hold some scientific credence). The right hemisphere also has a holistic method of perception that is able to recognize patterns and similarities and combines those elements into new forms.
So I guess I can jump to the conclusion that “The Hero’s Journey” teaches us how to use our brain properly. We have our societal brain and our mythological brain, and when we use them together, we can all be decent human beings. :D

Of course this would also imply that there’s a lot of people running around out there that don’t know how to use their brain. :shock:

Now that’s scary! :twisted:

So I guess the next time somebody says to me “There’s no meaning to life” I can tell them…

“Yes there is, but you won’t be able to understand it until you figure out how to use your brain.” :lol: :lol:
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

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