Can Christianity be recreated to work as a metaphor ?
Moderators: Clemsy, Martin_Weyers, Cindy B.
-
- Associate
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 4:55 am
-
- Working Associate
- Posts: 10645
- Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2002 6:00 am
- Location: The forest... somewhere north of Albany
- Contact:
Yes, Synch. And to be clear, my comment was in response to Krugers,
Yup, better now than then. I'd miss my contacts and glasses. Anesthesia. Shiraz. Rock ' roll.
Books.
You know... stuff.
...meaning that in the 15th century researching various ways to view Christianity was... frowned upon. They liked to burn people for, what seems to us anyway, the silliest reasons.I have been researching various ways to view Christianity that would be acceptable to my intellectual mind.
Yup, better now than then. I'd miss my contacts and glasses. Anesthesia. Shiraz. Rock ' roll.
Books.
You know... stuff.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas
This comment is too interesting for me to resist.A paraphrase here (from Campbell?), Religion was created to protect Humankind from an experience of God. Is this applicable? --Dionysus.
Institutionalized religion became a means for controlling the masses. In order to do that, you must ensure the followers never experience the mystic revelation of “god”.
Otherwise the authority of the "church" will be questioned. IMHO, this is exemplified in the Gospel of Thomas (imagine that) in these quotes:
And39 Jesus said, "The Pharisees and the scholars have taken the keys of knowledge and have hidden them. They have not entered nor have they allowed those who want to enter to do so.
Great observation Dionysus!102 Jesus said, "Damn the Pharisees! They are like a dog sleeping in the cattle manger: the dog neither eats nor [lets] the cattle eat."
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.
Hi all,
Just wanted to say, good quotes Neo.
And for my two cents worth, I'm not sure the metaphor needs to be reworked so much as simply the way of viewing it.
bg
_____________
just dance and the world might just dance with you
Just wanted to say, good quotes Neo.
And for my two cents worth, I'm not sure the metaphor needs to be reworked so much as simply the way of viewing it.
bg
_____________
just dance and the world might just dance with you
Last edited by boringguy on Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thanks, Cindy! That's probably what I was referencing.
Neo, Hi! I remember your posts from several years ago and always enjoyed them.
I (sad to admit) haven't gone back to read all the posts on this thread (I know . . . I will, I will), but I wanted to reflect briefly on the header, "Can Christianity be recreated to work as a metaphor?" Well, it DOES work as a metaphor. That's what it IS. The problems arise when one looks at religion, ANY religion, as having a monopoly on the "Truth".
To share an experience: Several years ago I found myself working along-side of a slew (sp?) of Christian fundamentalists. I have to take my hat off to one of them who found my point of view interesting and engaged me in a deeper conversation. I remember ( and have used this thought since) saying to him, "When you find someone who is starving, give him a bowl of rice. Don't tell him how to eat it." His response was quite positive, but I don't remember him coming back for further conversations. Too bad.
A general question: I have forgotten how to extract quotes from other people's posts and have wanted to do so. I asked management and have received no response. Which icons do I use (Luddite). Thanks! -- Dionysus.
Neo, Hi! I remember your posts from several years ago and always enjoyed them.
I (sad to admit) haven't gone back to read all the posts on this thread (I know . . . I will, I will), but I wanted to reflect briefly on the header, "Can Christianity be recreated to work as a metaphor?" Well, it DOES work as a metaphor. That's what it IS. The problems arise when one looks at religion, ANY religion, as having a monopoly on the "Truth".
To share an experience: Several years ago I found myself working along-side of a slew (sp?) of Christian fundamentalists. I have to take my hat off to one of them who found my point of view interesting and engaged me in a deeper conversation. I remember ( and have used this thought since) saying to him, "When you find someone who is starving, give him a bowl of rice. Don't tell him how to eat it." His response was quite positive, but I don't remember him coming back for further conversations. Too bad.
A general question: I have forgotten how to extract quotes from other people's posts and have wanted to do so. I asked management and have received no response. Which icons do I use (Luddite). Thanks! -- Dionysus.
Hey,
Cool conversation, more later I am gonna eat some lamp now... Eastern here in Greece.
This is true Neo. I can't help but think the same. Sometimes though I do wonder if a person really wants to experience god is there any stopping him/her?Institutionalized religion became a means for controlling the masses. In order to do that, you must ensure the followers never experience the mystic revelation of “god”.
Otherwise the authority of the "church" will be questioned. -Neo
Heraclitus said something similar about this. I think it is the ability of the individual to read the signs or interpret the symbols which allows him to experience god or something like this.Describing the practice of religious prophets, Heraclitus says, “The Lord whose oracle is at Delphi neither reveals nor conceals, but gives a sign”
Cool conversation, more later I am gonna eat some lamp now... Eastern here in Greece.
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki
-
- Associate
- Posts: 3191
- Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:24 pm
- Location: Earth
Hello Dionysus!A general question: I have forgotten how to extract quotes from other people's posts and have wanted to do so. I asked management and have received no response. Which icons do I use (Luddite). Thanks! -- Dionysus.
Here is what you do.
Go to the quote you want to copy.
Highlight it (however you prefer) and then copy it (again, however you like...I am on a PC, so I use the edit menu...old habits die hard!)
Go to your new post and paste it. Then rehighlight the quote and click on the "Quote" button that you see above your text box here. Hit the preview button. It should now be in a separate box. You can go in that box and edit or add as you like.
Hope that helps!
~JJ
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams
-
- Associate
- Posts: 3191
- Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:24 pm
- Location: Earth
Hello everyone and Happy Easter!
Great conversation.
We all seem to share a similar perspective here and that is that when we attempt to make a metaphor a concrete reality the trouble begins. Joe integrated this statement into everything I have ever read or seen him speaking about. He was also always mindful of the value of the various metaphors within their particular context while warning us about the dangers of concretization (holy lands, "this central peak", etc). His concern toward the end of his life was what we were going to have as our new mythology, if anything.
What aspects of our collective unconscious are not being properly addressed? Each of our own personal dreams is, as Joe said, our own private myth. Mythology is the public dream. I wonder (aloud) if a "collective dream analysis" would reveal commonalities that are being expressed, yet not addressed, on a world-wide level?
The field of Psychology has largely abandoned the "art" of dream analysis. The field is largely focused on pragmatism today. Brief therapy that can be seen with measurable results, which can be properly billed to an insurance company. Insurance largely determines what kinds of therapy are acceptable and how many sessions per year are allowed.
The price of this has been a movement away from depth psychology (like Jungian Psychoanalysis) when someone is studying to enter the field, which is too bad. Technical eclecticism is accepted as a valid methodology, but it seems that there are few opportunities to train in the areas of depth psychology as compared to the various cognitive behavioral approaches, which are effective and brief.
If we did have more folks out there doing dream analysis as a part of a patients therapy and the analysts were to add the content of the dreams to a large central database, we might begin to see an overarching pattern of human concerns being expressed as a part of the collective unconscious. This could potentially begin to reawaken our sleeping mythology.
That being said, I do strongly believe (in my own personal opinion) that much of the Eastern philosophy speaks to our modern needs quite well. The best of it puts the gods in their symbolic place and leaves "The God" within. In many Buddhist practices, we are encouraged to explore the nature of reality and base our beliefs on rational exploration based upon our (and worldwide) senses. Science is not the enemy. It is a tool. Not an end, just a means...where it truly belongs. The primary issue with this is that the Western mind is generally not open to "no self", no external God authority, and owning our actions without excuses.
For Christianity to be relevant, like any religion, it must adapt and grow like any organism. If it does not evolve, it will die out eventually. It must acknowledge what cannot be logically proven and adjust the canon accordingly. But this will not happen, in my view. It amounts to yanking a rug out from under itself.
Great conversation.
We all seem to share a similar perspective here and that is that when we attempt to make a metaphor a concrete reality the trouble begins. Joe integrated this statement into everything I have ever read or seen him speaking about. He was also always mindful of the value of the various metaphors within their particular context while warning us about the dangers of concretization (holy lands, "this central peak", etc). His concern toward the end of his life was what we were going to have as our new mythology, if anything.
What aspects of our collective unconscious are not being properly addressed? Each of our own personal dreams is, as Joe said, our own private myth. Mythology is the public dream. I wonder (aloud) if a "collective dream analysis" would reveal commonalities that are being expressed, yet not addressed, on a world-wide level?
The field of Psychology has largely abandoned the "art" of dream analysis. The field is largely focused on pragmatism today. Brief therapy that can be seen with measurable results, which can be properly billed to an insurance company. Insurance largely determines what kinds of therapy are acceptable and how many sessions per year are allowed.
The price of this has been a movement away from depth psychology (like Jungian Psychoanalysis) when someone is studying to enter the field, which is too bad. Technical eclecticism is accepted as a valid methodology, but it seems that there are few opportunities to train in the areas of depth psychology as compared to the various cognitive behavioral approaches, which are effective and brief.
If we did have more folks out there doing dream analysis as a part of a patients therapy and the analysts were to add the content of the dreams to a large central database, we might begin to see an overarching pattern of human concerns being expressed as a part of the collective unconscious. This could potentially begin to reawaken our sleeping mythology.
That being said, I do strongly believe (in my own personal opinion) that much of the Eastern philosophy speaks to our modern needs quite well. The best of it puts the gods in their symbolic place and leaves "The God" within. In many Buddhist practices, we are encouraged to explore the nature of reality and base our beliefs on rational exploration based upon our (and worldwide) senses. Science is not the enemy. It is a tool. Not an end, just a means...where it truly belongs. The primary issue with this is that the Western mind is generally not open to "no self", no external God authority, and owning our actions without excuses.
For Christianity to be relevant, like any religion, it must adapt and grow like any organism. If it does not evolve, it will die out eventually. It must acknowledge what cannot be logically proven and adjust the canon accordingly. But this will not happen, in my view. It amounts to yanking a rug out from under itself.
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams
"That being said, I do strongly believe (in my own personal opinion) that much of the Eastern philosophy speaks to our modern needs quite well. The best of it puts the gods in their symbolic place and leaves "The God" within. In many Buddhist practices, we are encouraged to explore the nature of reality and base our beliefs on rational exploration based upon our (and worldwide) senses. Science is not the enemy. It is a tool. Not an end, just a means...where it truly belongs. The primary issue with this is that the Western mind is generally not open to "no self", no external God authority, and owning our actions without excuses."
JJ, I love this... Well said! My girlfriend and I go around and around on this. The Buddhist concept of nothingness and no-self are hard to grasp. But the more you talk about it - the farther you get away from it. So we end up laughing about it and moving on. Actually I'm more of a quasi-Buddhist as I have trouble with the whole re-incarnation thing.
I love this entire post. Thanks! I work in human services and brought up the psychology of dreams and Jungian analysis,but you're right, how can they bill that. And the whole idea seems to revolve around the idea of rehabilitating the individual in order to create an additional tax-payer. So. Who's crazy? --D.
JJ, I love this... Well said! My girlfriend and I go around and around on this. The Buddhist concept of nothingness and no-self are hard to grasp. But the more you talk about it - the farther you get away from it. So we end up laughing about it and moving on. Actually I'm more of a quasi-Buddhist as I have trouble with the whole re-incarnation thing.
I love this entire post. Thanks! I work in human services and brought up the psychology of dreams and Jungian analysis,but you're right, how can they bill that. And the whole idea seems to revolve around the idea of rehabilitating the individual in order to create an additional tax-payer. So. Who's crazy? --D.