Can Christianity be recreated to work as a metaphor ?

What needs do mythology and religion serve in today's world and in ancient times? Here we discuss the relationship between mythology, religion and science from mythological, religious and philosophical viewpoints.

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Douglas B. Clark
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Can Christianity be recreated as a metaphor?

Post by Douglas B. Clark »

The original question is: "Can Christianity be recreated to work as a metaphor?"

Jesus said the kingdom of God is within us. The implications of this statement supports the premise of Christianity as a metaphor. If the kingdom is within us then so is the King and not only the King, but the enemy arises from within also.

The problem lies in our individual experience. We often begin our journey like Peter who had the revelation of the Christ yet was still full of himself. It was after his famous denial of Jesus that his eyes were opened to the truth and the Christ in him began to emerge. Peter's faltering was perhaps the best thing that ever happened to him in regard to his journey.

We may desire to teach others about the metaphor but not all have eyes to see. Still the pharisees and religious crowd have their role to play in the unfolding drama.

Douglas

youkrst
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Post by youkrst »

i dont know if "christianity can be recreated as a metaphor"

but i think it can be defused as a spiritual baby killer when the metaphorical interpretation is made known.

that is what happened with me, the venom of literalism was killing me stone dead but then i happened upon symbolic explanations and soon i was seeing the metaphors and thinking "god was i really that dumb?!!" (yes, is the answer, but thankfully everyone was too polite to say it)

so the letter kills but the metaphor points to life.

so if christianity makes it any further by a resurgence of understanding of the symbols and metaphors well i dont mind or if it dies off and people just come up with a new set of metaphors all well and good but to me it doesnt really matter too much as i am through.

i kind of self-initiated into the christian system through spontaneous mystic visions then fell victim to literalist orthodox pig-ignorance then transcended it through it's own esoteric gnosis.

so i dont care if christianity makes it or not (i think the well might be too poisoned) but i do want to see literalism ended like yesterday at the latest before like herod it kills any more babies, though there is one baby too well hidden for it.

i think if christian, islamic and jewish literalism could be eliminated we would have a much better playing surface to enjoy the game on, not so many broken and bloodied bodies to have to jump over to get at the ball.

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Post by jonsjourney »

so i dont care if christianity makes it or not (i think the well might be too poisoned) but i do want to see literalism ended like yesterday at the latest before like herod it kills any more babies, though there is one baby too well hidden for it.

i think if christian, islamic and jewish literalism could be eliminated we would have a much better playing surface to enjoy the game on, not so many broken and bloodied bodies to have to jump over to get at the ball. -youkrst
I agree with your take on it. In my mind, the reason why these religions "work", or maybe better put...continue to exist, is because it is hard work to be spiritually independent. People join religions for many, many reasons, but a great many join because they are lonely both literally and spiritually. We, at least here in the West, have been raised in a system that follows orderly, scientifically-driven principles combined with market-driven freedom. We are trained from an early age to comply with the system, while maintaining some strange pie-in-the-sky notion of individualism and freedom. We embrace our modern technology and innovations, yet cling to archaic beliefs, so we are largely a schizoid society. I agree with those writers who see our clinging to these old ways as a reaction to the discoveries of the Enlightenment period and the subsequent freedom to explore the claims made by the priests of a omniscient and omnipresent god who loves everyone...as long as they tow the line.

What am I driving at? Uncertainty. It is, at least to a great degree, this uneasiness with uncertainty that drives our psyches to the creation of life cradles, and religion has become one of the biggest cradles of all. Rather than seeing the metaphoric value and universal messages contained within the stories, too many folks seek "answers" and "facts" that can be literally believed so that they can literally believe in an afterlife that involves mansions in the sky while hanging out with all the their friends and families....and never wanting for anything, while the "evil" are denied this paradise and receive their due in the fiery pits of Detroit. :wink:

As believers, they will tell you that I (a confirmed skeptic) am to be placed on a spit, roasted, and sold to tailgaters at Detroit Lions games when I die (or maybe before!!!), that is...if anyone tailgates up there. :lol:

Pass the BBQ sauce.
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

Douglas B. Clark
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Post by Douglas B. Clark »

so the letter kills but the metaphor points to life.

I like that statement. :)


i
kind of self-initiated into the christian system through spontaneous mystic visions then fell victim to literalist orthodox pig-ignorance then transcended it through it's own esoteric gnosis.
My journey has been the Christian path but I was led away from orthodox and organized religion while I was still a teenager. I began with an awakening and like most I first applied it to the outer life. As I progressed I discovered an inner life. Over time and a significant amount of suffering I began to see the metaphor.

Douglas

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Post by Douglas B. Clark »

jonsjourney wrote:[ while the "evil" are denied this paradise and receive their due in the fiery pits of Detroit. :wink:


Ouch! I'm from Michigan. Your Detroit metaphor is not lining up with the Pure Michigan campaign. 8)

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Post by jonsjourney »

Sorry Douglas! I was just following up on the old stereotype from the classic film "Airplane". For what it is worth, living in the rust belt south of Cleveland, we are in largely the same boat....it just seemed that Detroit was the better metaphor. :lol:
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

youkrst
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Post by youkrst »

What am I driving at? Uncertainty. It is, at least to a great degree, this uneasiness with uncertainty that drives our psyches to the creation of life cradles, and religion has become one of the biggest cradles of all. Rather than seeing the metaphoric value and universal messages contained within the stories, too many folks seek "answers" and "facts" that can be literally believed so that they can literally believe in an afterlife that involves mansions in the sky while hanging out with all the their friends and families....and never wanting for anything, while the "evil" are denied this paradise and receive their due in the fiery pits of Detroit. -jonsjourney
:lol: yeah that really reminds me of "child and man"

it is the immature who has "this uneasiness with uncertainty that drives our psyches to the creation of life cradles, and religion has become one of the biggest cradles of all."

cradles are for children, who once grown a little need desparately " the metaphoric value and universal messages contained within the stories"

and the longer they "avoid" or "refuse" to grow up the more they get to that horrible state you describe
" too many folks seek "answers" and "facts" that can be literally believed so that they can literally believe in an afterlife that involves mansions in the sky while hanging out with all the their friends and families....and never wanting for anything, while the "evil" are denied this paradise and receive their due in the fiery pits of Detroit."
it's a mess isn't it

i really see more and more how "right on" Joe Campbell was bringing this crisis to our attention, how do we get "kids" to grow up.

literalism breeds infantilism of the worst and most dangerous kind.

morbid infantilism

and the hilarious thing is that it is in the texts, christians for example, have they not read
Heb 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
i guess in the end it's all a test of sincerity, if you REALLY want to know, you'll find out, or die trying, which amounts to the same thing.

anyways i'm trying not to ramble on too much, it is good to be here amongst folk who are learned and learning, a very pleasant and welcome surprise.
Last edited by youkrst on Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:13 am, edited 2 times in total.

youkrst
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Post by youkrst »

My journey has been the Christian path but I was led away from orthodox and organized religion while I was still a teenager. I began with an awakening and like most I first applied it to the outer life. As I progressed I discovered an inner life. Over time and a significant amount of suffering I began to see the metaphor.
somehow familiar and wonderful music to my ears Douglas, it is the inner that comes as such a sweet surprise isnt it, and seeing as how we are referencing the christian path maybe i can wax bold with a quote
But the Lord is IN his holy temple

Douglas B. Clark
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Post by Douglas B. Clark »

youkrst wrote:
My journey has been the Christian path but I was led away from orthodox and organized religion while I was still a teenager. I began with an awakening and like most I first applied it to the outer life. As I progressed I discovered an inner life. Over time and a significant amount of suffering I began to see the metaphor.
somehow familiar and wonderful music to my ears Douglas, it is the inner that comes as such a sweet surprise isnt it, and seeing as how we are referencing the christian path maybe i can wax bold with a quote
But the Lord is IN his holy temple

Thank you for speaking my language, youkrst :) I have understood for a long time we are the temple of Christ. It was a bit more shocking to me when I discovered "the man of sin" abides in the same temple -- thus the opposites.

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Post by youkrst »

It was a bit more shocking to me when I discovered "the man of sin" abides in the same temple -- thus the opposites.
excellent!, i remember the same, talk about a light in darkness, but yes, how can a system that excludes such a large part of what we are ever be satisfactory.

i remember reading
I am he that liveth, AND was dead; AND, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; AND have the keys of hell and of death.
in digital electronics we have gates that perform different operations there is the "AND" gate and the "OR" gate and the "XOR" gate etc etc

and i would always be thinking like an "OR" gate and getting knocked out.

then one day as i lay there reeling from a particularly nasty OR operation it was as if i heard a voice say "try AND rather than OR, you'll get much further" (thankyou future self)

i am first AND last not first OR last
i am shadow AND light not shadow OR light

that's what your post reminded me of, how when we externalise the christos and the man of sin we set up a dichotomy and side with one against the other, but internalised both are included and as the beatles say "we can work it out".

Douglas B. Clark
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Post by Douglas B. Clark »

youkrst,

I can see we could have some interesting conversations. I am always curious to hear about other folks revelations and experiences.

I like the insight of the "AND". It reminds me of something a friend shared with me regarding Esau, Jacob and Israel as metaphors depicting our journey. He said that both Esau and Jacob reside in us and we contend with both. Esau representing the natural man (lower self) AND Jacob, well, not yet the higher Self, but the one given the blessing reserved for the first born. Still it is Esau who comes out first. (Have you ever wondered why we tend to gravitate toward the literalist interpretation first before discovering the metaphor?) :wink:
Jacob must contend with many things for many years, including his brother. Eventually he becomes Israel but he carries with him a limp from wrestling with an angel.

It makes me think of the many trials we experience on our journey and the mark they leave on us. It has taken me a long time to learn to embrace all of my experiences so that I may be for something rather than against.

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Post by jonsjourney »

i guess in the end it's all a test of sincerity, if you REALLY want to know, you'll find out, or die trying, which amounts to the same thing. -youkrst
Yep. And when we frame the question of whether or not Christianity can find it's footing again in this way, the answer becomes "maybe". The problem is the pull of institutions versus the individuation process that leads a single person to their own understanding of spirituality. Institutions speak to the lowest common denominator. Individuation to the highest. In your case, and in Douglas', it appears the answer can be "yes". For others, it is "no" because the old ways have all that is needed and coming to one's own understanding amounts to some kind of subjectivist relativism hell.

For me, it cannot work because I "rejected" the Christian church so long ago and have found more powerful metaphors for me in other places, particularly in American Indian mythology and philosophy, but even that meaning is "limited" by my own personal cultural lens and experiences. However, I did peruse the Book of Job the other day and I have to say that it truly is a magnificent piece of literature...but boy, Yahweh has an Ego! :wink:

Reading both your and Douglas' postings has been refreshing. So if I have neglected to do so before, welcome and Happy New Year!
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

Douglas B. Clark
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Post by Douglas B. Clark »

Reading both your and Douglas' postings has been refreshing. So if I have neglected to do so before, welcome and Happy New Year!

Thank you :) Happy New Year to you too!

youkrst
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Post by youkrst »

He said that both Esau and Jacob reside in us and we contend with both. Esau representing the natural man (lower self) AND Jacob, well, not yet the higher Self, but the one given the blessing reserved for the first born. Still it is Esau who comes out first.
wooohooo! yes to continue in esoteric christian parlance "first that which is natural then that which is spiritual" first the child then the man. first the milk then the meat (all metaphoric) vegetarians please choose another metaphor :lol:

yes i sense we are of one mind in these matters Douglas.

reminds me of that great Campbell quote

where we had thought to be alone we shall be with all the people of the world

and that other one Joe would quote

truly all the gods and goddesses are within you.

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Post by youkrst »

For me, it cannot work because I "rejected" the Christian church so long ago and have found more powerful metaphors for me in other places, particularly in American Indian mythology and philosophy, but even that meaning is "limited" by my own personal cultural lens and experiences. However, I did peruse the Book of Job the other day and I have to say that it truly is a magnificent piece of literature...but boy, Yahweh has an Ego! Wink
:lol:

nearly as big as mine :wink:

mmmm excellent stuff jj.

yes that was one of the most wonderful surprises to me once i started to break free of literalism

i could at last begin to enjoy ALL the metaphors that had previously been taboo under orthodoxy, a feast fit for a king.

it's like going from 3" tunnel vision to the vista grande.

viva la metaphor!

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