2010: Integration of East and West.

What needs do mythology and religion serve in today's world and in ancient times? Here we discuss the relationship between mythology, religion and science from mythological, religious and philosophical viewpoints.

Moderators: Clemsy, Martin_Weyers, Cindy B.

Locked
Clemsy
Working Associate
Posts: 10645
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2002 6:00 am
Location: The forest... somewhere north of Albany
Contact:

Post by Clemsy »

I wasn't sure where to put this at first, and decided this may be the spot. The inspiration is from Nandu's post in the New Age thread about misapplication of Hindu practice in the West. Indeed, one can get the feeling that Eastern thought of any flavor is treated like a toy.

But that's a feeling and I don't know how accurate it is. Just as I am highly skeptical over all the denigration of New Age thought and practice. I hear a lot of assumptions, but don't really see any concrete evidence that doesn't rely on stereotype or the idea that 'anecdote equals evidence,' a guaranteed logical fallacy that 'sounds really good.'

As I was shoveling snow this morning (very light and fluffy, wish I was skiing, not shoveling) I realized that the influx of unwashed hippies to India was a consequence and not a cause.

Eastern thought was already well entrenched in some areas of the States by the late 50's and early 60's. However, when the four most famous young men on the planet went to India to study under Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, the floodgates were opened. Of course George maintained his interest and John let us know his feelings in Sexy Sadie.

Doesn't matter. Teachers from the East saw their moment. By 1970 not only was the Maharishi a household name, but Swami Satchidanda and Sri Chinmoy were as well (at least in my household).

And then there's Richard Alpert, colleague of one Timothy Leary, who, at least as I recall the story, who went to India to enlighten the gurus there with LSD. He offered one master a hit of White Lightening. The sage took the bottle instead and ate all the pills.

15 minutes later he looked at Alpert and said, "So what?"

Alpert changed his name to Ram Dass and wrote a book that remains seminal in my own personal philosophy: Be Here Now. (Sound familiar?)

But this wasn't anything new here. It had just become popular. Paramahansa Yogananda got here in the fifties on the advice of his guru, Sri Yukteswar, and is credited with being the person to bring yoga to the West. His Autobiography of a Yogi is still a best seller here. (I've read it three times myself.)

That there would wind up being shallow fringe elements around this stuff is to be expected, human nature being what it is. However, the work these people did continues to positively influence Western culture today.

As I mentioned in the New Age thread, I attended a class on Buddhist meditation techniques the other day. This particular monk has been teaching in my community for about a year, and always has a packed house. He's really very cool.
Last edited by Clemsy on Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

jonsjourney
Associate
Posts: 3191
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:24 pm
Location: Earth

Post by jonsjourney »

As I mentioned in the New Age thread, I attended a class on Buddhist meditation techniques the other day. This particular monk has been teaching in my community for about a year, and always has a packed house. He's really very cool. -Clemsy
I have mentioned this before here, but when I had the good fortune to attend the Toward a Science of Consciousness conference last spring, which is the world's largest conference of the topic of consciousness and related studies, after seeing some of the greatest thinkers and authors in the field (like David Chalmers and Antonio Damasio) speak, it was a relatively little known Tibetan Buddhist monk named Za Rinpoche who gave the most interesting and, pardon the pun, enlightening speech. He was just like the Dalai Lama in that he radiated positive, joyful energy that filled the room. It was awesome.
Eastern thought was already well entrenched in some areas of the States by the late 50's and early 60's. -Clemsy
And even though he was not from India, D.T. Suzuki was having a profound impact as well in many circles, not the least of which was Joseph Campbell. In addition, he (Suzuki) had a friendship and impact on the psychoanalysts Karen Horney and Erich Fromm, who would later write about the insights of Zen on their practices. There work would have a huge impact on the work of Mark Epstein, who has really written a great deal on the topic of integration (from a Freudian perspective). All these folks opened the door for modern cognitive therapy to grab mindfulness as a psychotherapeutic intervention that has been outperforming antidepressants in trial after trial.

Another man who affected Joe's work and had a less publicly recognizable impact on Eastern thinking here in the West, was Jiddu Krishnamurti...who I think Joe met on a transatlantic voyage.
That there would wind up being shallow fringe elements around this stuff is to be expected, human nature being what it is. However, the work these people did continues to positively influence Western culture today. -Clemsy
Always happens, doesn't it?
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

nandu
Associate
Posts: 3395
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:45 am
Location: Kerala, the green country
Contact:

Post by nandu »

Please don't think that I meant that all Indian Gurus are charlatans. Far from it.

But I still feel that the West is too gullible. In the introduction to Karma Cola, Gita Mehta recounts the episode of an American girl who was raped by a so-called guru in a Himalayan cave, because she had walked into his lair unsuspecting. Later on, she said: "Now I am more knowlegeable. I would suspect any Guru wearing sneakers!" (or something on those lines.)

Anything connected with India, or Indian spirituality, is not automatically good. India is much more materialistic than naive New Agers assume. That is why I said in the other thread that Indians never forget their "Baksheesh" in pursuit of the "Brahman"! And Indian philosophy is not a monolithic thing. Of course, one can say that the bottom line is Tat tvam asi, but then, there is no magic pill for that.

Nandu.
Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavanthu

jonsjourney
Associate
Posts: 3191
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:24 pm
Location: Earth

Post by jonsjourney »

Anything connected with India, or Indian spirituality, is not automatically good. India is much more materialistic than naive New Agers assume. -nandu
I took a class last year in comparative religious studies. First up was India and the multitudes of views found there. We studied the four "main" forms of yoga; we touched on Hinduism; Buddhism as it exists in India (which is, I suppose for the sake of simplicity here, practiced informally); Islam and Christianity. We read passages from the Upanishads, a section of the Bhagavad Gita, and a bit of Vedic text. After looking at all that, we discussed the "problems" associated with the various practices in India, which included a pretty in depth discussion of the caste system and some discussion of the problems associated with the Western conceptions of gurus.

It was actually pretty nicely balanced, but the vast majority of the students were just plain lost. Culturally, it was so different from their very narrow viewpoints that the simplest vocabulary like jnana or bhakti threw them for a total loop. Having read so much Joseph Campbell really gave me an edge in the class, but I still learned a great deal.

I guess the point here, nandu, is that at least in my class there was an effort to quell any "romanticism" of the Indian spiritual traditions and talk about them for the good and the bad that they are.
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

Clemsy
Working Associate
Posts: 10645
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2002 6:00 am
Location: The forest... somewhere north of Albany
Contact:

Post by Clemsy »

Nandu, romanticism of what is considered "exotic? is always a problem. The same applies to Native culture here. Many people tend to think of Native Americans as homogeneous and forget the definition of the word 'tribe.' (Tribes who fought one another centuries ago still do so today. Except now economics and law are the weapons.)

Now I consider it, many people do the same with American culture, on one extreme or the other
Please don't think that I meant that all Indian Gurus are charlatans. Far from it. ~Nandu
I didn't infer that from what you said, Nandu. The guys I mentioned in my post did a lot of good stuff. The Maharishi was a controversial figure, but I don't know the validity of the controversy myself. My brother was a student of Swami Satchidananda for a while back in the early 70's. I had a huge poster of him hanging over my bed. Never personally heard him speak, but I never got that 'cultish' feel about him at all. Always thought of him as a decent chap. Which was not the case when my brother brought Nicheren Soshu (sp?) Buddhism into the house. Now that had a cultish feel to it. (Don't even get me started on Scientology. And it sorta belongs here because L. Ron Hubbard considered himself the return of the Buddha... at least that's what he told everyone. He makes this claim very elegantly, and in verse, in a book titled The Hymn of Asia. Talk about hijacking!)
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

jonsjourney
Associate
Posts: 3191
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:24 pm
Location: Earth

Post by jonsjourney »

I thought I would share this very simple quote from the Chinese Ch'an (Zen) tradition...

"On no account make a distinction between the Absolute and the sentient world." -Huángbò Xīyùn (often referred to as Huang-po in the West)

This is a pretty bold statement! I think that is one of things I appreciate about Zen teachings. They often took the already bold and revolutionary approaches taken by Buddha Shakyamuni and, in the words of Emeril Lagasse, "kicked it up a notch!". It was the Zen tradition that gave us the koan, "If you see a Buddha on the road, kill him!!!". There is something about the sense of urgency in some of the Zen traditions that is great, although it does not always speak to me on a personal level...I tend to be more laid back in nature.
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

Dionysus
Associate
Posts: 476
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:07 pm
Location: Pittsfield, MA

Post by Dionysus »

I agree, j.j. I appreciate the Zen tradition, and especially love the koans. But these guys are, to my way of thinking, a little too serious about their non-being.

jonsjourney
Associate
Posts: 3191
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:24 pm
Location: Earth

Post by jonsjourney »

I appreciate the Zen tradition, and especially love the koans. But these guys are, to my way of thinking, a little too serious about their non-being. -Dio
Every time I stub my toe really hard, I realize just how real my being is! :lol:
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

Neoplato
Associate
Posts: 3907
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:02 pm
Location: Virginia
Contact:

Post by Neoplato »

Every time I stub my toe really hard, I realize just how real my being is! -JJ
Yep. Somehow the realization of pain is convincing evidence that "I exist". :lol:
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

nandu
Associate
Posts: 3395
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:45 am
Location: Kerala, the green country
Contact:

Post by nandu »

jonsjourney wrote:
I appreciate the Zen tradition, and especially love the koans. But these guys are, to my way of thinking, a little too serious about their non-being. -Dio
Every time I stub my toe really hard, I realize just how real my being is! :lol:
The whole idea of the illusory nature of existence one of the major barriers of understanding between the East and the West. The evidence for our existence is provided by ourselves: when you stub your toe, you feel pain, therefore you exist. So the feeling of pain, generated though transitory impulses in your brain, convinces you of your existence. But suppose, through a genetic defect, you were unable to feel pain (like the villain of Stieg Larsson's Millenium Trilogy)? Then would you exist?

The Zen masters are only saying that one's "being" is inextricably linked with one's "consciousness", which is subjective. The same goes for one's experience of the world. This is the veil of Maya. As an Indian, I have no problem in internalising this concept. But I have dealt with many Westerners who find it extremely disturbing and offensive.

Nandu.
Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavanthu

Andreas
Associate
Posts: 2274
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:07 am

Post by Andreas »

This is the veil of Maya. As an Indian, I have no problem in internalising this concept. But I have dealt with many Westerners who find it extremely disturbing and offensive. - nandu
I like this concept and I don't find it distrubing or offensive but I also think that it is illusory. ;)
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

Clemsy
Working Associate
Posts: 10645
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2002 6:00 am
Location: The forest... somewhere north of Albany
Contact:

Post by Clemsy »

It really is a fascinating point. Our experience of the world is totally dependent on the functionality of the brain, and the brain's interpretation is twice (three times?) removed from what is 'real.' I heard an interview with a woman on the radio once who has the rare condition of not being able to recognize faces, anyone's faces, ever. Everyone, including her family, has to remind her who they are.

When the brain is functioning properly, we can mostly agree with what's going on around us. But, as I interpret Nandu's point, there may be objective reality, but we can never know it, only the body's interpretation of it.

Even math and science offer only another filter, although they may be more dependable filters, depending on the completeness of the data being processed.
Last edited by Clemsy on Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

jonsjourney
Associate
Posts: 3191
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:24 pm
Location: Earth

Post by jonsjourney »

All great stuff folks. It is fascinating the way our brains are said to work in creating our experiences. This is why Thomas Nagel's paper, What is it like to be a bat?, is so good. He is saying that we cannot know because our senses are so fundamentally different that we cannot even use words in the proper way to describe what it may be like. Of course, it is a bold statement to say we cannot know, but his point is to just pull away from our human-only narrow view of the universe for a minute and remember that our sense experiences as interpreted by our brains determine how we perceive and operate in the world and our universe.

When Descartes said Cogito Ergo Sum, he really made a very profound statement without having the ability to know just how profound it was. It was a meditation on experience that led him to making that statement. Just like the Buddha who spent much time talking about how our experiences and consciousness of experiences define our reality. Without the benefit of neuroscience or any understanding of synaptic firings, great thinkers were able to intuit that sense experience created the world in a manner of speaking.

I suppose we have to say that without the one who experiences (subject), the mountain (object) still stands...but what would it be? Without a sensor of of physical properties, what is it like to be an "x"? It is mind-boggling.
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

Dionysus
Associate
Posts: 476
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:07 pm
Location: Pittsfield, MA

Post by Dionysus »

The trick is to place one's self in state where one has a foot in BOTH worlds. Thus, first there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is.

Clemsy
Working Associate
Posts: 10645
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2002 6:00 am
Location: The forest... somewhere north of Albany
Contact:

Post by Clemsy »

I like that, Dio.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

Locked