Jung's warnings

What needs do mythology and religion serve in today's world and in ancient times? Here we discuss the relationship between mythology, religion and science from mythological, religious and philosophical viewpoints.

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Ercan2121
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Post by Ercan2121 »

'We need more psychology, we need more understanding of human nature. Because the only real danger that exists is man himself ! He is the great danger. And we are pitifully unaware of it ! We know nothing of man. Far too little. His psyche should be studied. Because we are the origin of all coming evil."


Hi everybody,
Just wanted to add one of my favorite Jung quotes. Thank you.

Andreas
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Post by Andreas »

One of my favorites Ercan. :)
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

sharibanflynn
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Post by sharibanflynn »

'Enantiodromia. Literally, "running counter to," referring to the emergence of the unconscious opposite in the course of time. This characteristic phenomenon practically always occurs when an extreme, one-sided tendency dominates conscious life; in time an equally powerful counterposition is built up, which first inhibits the conscious
performance and subsequently breaks through the conscious control. ("Definitions," ibid., par. 709)
various Jung works
(1)Has it been your experience, that people who attempt/plan suicide are oblivious to the unconscious side of life?
(2)And do the exhibit a dominate one-sided tendency in conscious life.?
(3) Do they speak of a general daemon archtype?
From my own experience, there seems to be a tremendous amount of projection going on'

Given Questions are easy to ask...etc., and that we are encouraged to know more about the psyche etc., I am given a clean page to perform..
and if the topic or rather subject material were not so grave, humour would once again need to run deeper than tragedy..

The question (1) above is as complex as the people to whom it applies..
The common traits (I find) are that: at the point of suicide people cannot continue as before- the Tarot card of Death represents Change. And death has to be what went before not THEY themselves. So....
The gambler has to break loose from Fortuna by finding purpose in their life.
For another- Aphrodite is at play- investing in a relationship that offers total eclipse of self– resulting in devastation when that relationship collapses. So the change here is to re-discover what they love doing and then DO what they love.
Again, another Archetype at play here big time is Cybele..Her devotees seek to be ex-communicated...Hatred of same is another ball game!
But she would rather have them dead than wed....So we got Transference here not Projection- but sure! both are toys of the unconscious..
'What a father puts down, only a father can pick up' Jung.
The son in the shadow of his father is the other side of the coin.. and the violence of 'doing nothing' has to be identified for what it is.
Another involves negative attachment via RAGE..perhaps a touch of Artemis here and not without due cause, rape, battering etc,. But attachment it is and has to be recognised for what it is..not easy work!
Sorry its so complex...
The question (2) above is also correct as a universal comment.. onesidedness?..Mmmmm..
given that the unconscious tries to recreate balance etc,. It would be nice to assume self destruction was the act of the unconscious.. A little like saying 'They must be mad! As reason for some outrageous evil act.
When Aires creates his Theatre of WAR.. murder of many -not one- is justified. Belief can justify all behaviour and as Jung said 'All belief is second hand.' So rather than promote what is 'right and what is wrong' in my work I promote what is useful and what is harmful.
So onesidedness assumes the unconscious is causal, Mmmm.. not always acceptable perhaps.
Question (3) assumes 'possession' of some kind..Jung said the word 'mind' displaced the word 'magick'. This one is not easy to address esp. when it presents in a person as voices or rather inner self condemnation. Several patients summed up same quite succinctly by saying they 'became' what the school bullies said he/she was- fat-usless- ugly etc.. The Ego thus found a way to survive the abuse, but alas not a very useful one! And so the internalising of the bully becomes the abuser- I did write about this this web page- and formulated the four parts of decision making- ~The ~Quadrat- esp when decisions become self-abusive. This form of fracture is (for me) ~THE cause of self hurt.
And other stuff like 90% of suicides have taken alcohol – self harm plays but a small part in the equalisation I have found.
Enough!
I still work with people who are suicidal. my main interest is in sculpture via ceramics

Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. »

Just want to mention that archetypal scenarios will vary among various individuals.

Cindy
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

sharibanflynn
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Post by sharibanflynn »

Cindy B
agreed myriad,
I still work with people who are suicidal. my main interest is in sculpture via ceramics

stephen Neece
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Post by stephen Neece »

There is a cure for everything, the proverb says, except for death
Given Questions are easy to ask...etc., and that we are encouraged to know more about the psyche etc., I am given a clean page to perform..
and if the topic or rather subject material were not so grave, humour would once again need to run deeper than tragedy..
sharibanflynn, your answers help. I've had members of my family as well as friends and friend's family commit suicide, as well as my first wifes' attempt at suicide while I was in the car. Since continued experience enhances the way in which we view past experiences, certain question come up again and again to promote understanding and balance. At times I wish could talk to to them, just to tell them I miss them. I have also had to deal with schizophrenia in my family,( grandmother, mother, uncle, brother, cousin and nephew). I've found humor necessary in dealing with the crazys, but it doesn't help at all with the suicdes. once again your insights are very helpful, they provide a different prospective to aid in dealing with my haunts
Every inspiring ideal grasps for some perpetuating symbolism-seeks some technique for cultural manifestation which will insure survival and augment realization-and the cult achieves this end by fostering and gratifying emotion TUB

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Post by Ercan2121 »

Andreas wrote:One of my favorites Ercan. :)
Andreas,
In Japan, that wind has a name; そよかぜ
[Soyokaze] is an extraordinary breeze indeed :-)

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Post by Andreas »

Cool. Thanks!
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

sharibanflynn
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Post by sharibanflynn »

Stephen,
I Reviewed what was below and changed the first part as it was ill written! :oops:
Not an easy reply you give, and at least what I seem to have written was of some use. Here is a little more, which I find has so many idiosyncratic variations it can be applied to depending on the degree of internalisation of abuse the patient has done.

Here is a little of what I found in clinical practice based upon Jung's psychological Types (allowing for many idiosyncratic variations.)The Quadrat can be applied to internalisation of abuse and identify how the critical path of decisions in their life past and present, keeps them in the abuse role.
It is part of a paper I have prepared, but needs further work to finalise..
I cannot 'fix' the essay layout herein as I would like, but the points are laid out like the compass with power being =
NORTH = Intuition/what is intended to be achieved. The POWER to decide,
SOUTH = Consequence/ the result of intention. The END product. The actualisation of the decision
WEST = Control / the how to do what is intended. This is the Thinking aspect, controlling, focusing
EAST = Responsibility/ the reason why it is being done. This is the Feeling part, questioning worth
The above is likened to Jung's four psychological functions.
,... so here goes with some part of the 'post' Jungian therapy developed in the analysand based upon Jungian psychology:-

What the Quadrat is meant to highlight.
I call this heuristic device ‘A Quadrat’ because it comprises of four essential aspects common in all decisions. This device has the capability to be applied to the decision making process for both king and peasant, judge and villain, but I have specifically designed it to explore the role of victim and those who self abuse, that is, people who deliberately self harm and why some people resort to suicide.
It is designed to explore and determine the ‘critical path’ within the process involved in decision making measured over time and also in retrospect. The device also has the advantage of a dynamic model to be used by the Client themselves set against actual decisions they made and to explore just how much power and control they did or did not have!
The Quadrat identifies four main sections (cardinal points) of decision making to include Power, control, responsibility and consequence. Each of these four can be subdivided into four, making twenty in all but this detail of the device is omitted here but has application to retrospective assessment of case development.

In fig 1& fig 2 below I have put together the essential components of the Quadrat within the decision-making process which are both a positive and negative.


They are:
N. Power - willingness -capacity -authority -choice (NORTH) masculine -Father archetype
The energy herein is Intuition- looking ahead at WHAT needs to be done.

W.Control - negotiation -objectiveness -consistency -restraint (WEST)-masculine-Son archetype. the energy here is Thinking the HOW to do what needs to be done.

E.Responsibility -Respect- accountability- Independence- Burden (EAST)Feminine-daughter archetype. The energy here is Feeling- WHY do what needs to be done.

S.Consequence - Acceptance- intention -Implications -impact (SOUTH)Feminine- Mother archetype. The energy here is Sensation and simply (but profoundly) This 'IS' what we end up with having carried out the above three.
Fig 1.

However, when the zig-zag process that leads from Power to Control to Responsibility then finally on to Consequence, not North -South- East and West but North to West to East to South. But if this process is fractured (without equal agreement) then the process becomes abusive. and forms the following perverse manner:

NEGATIVE POWER - Dominance -Forcefulness- Self- imposition - Obligation

NEGATIVE CONTROL-Coercion selfishness- Erratic- beholden


NEGATIVE RESPONSIBILITY - Resentment-disregard-Guilt -Insoluble

NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCE -Shame-intention-Blame- Devastation

Fig 2
What can the Quadrat show when applied to people who become victims of abuse or those who purposely self harm?

Whenever there is an abdication or abandonment of one of the four cardinal aspect within the Quadrat, the result will be abusive behaviour either to oneself and/or others.

The main point is:Where did the fracture in the Critical Path of the Quadrat take place?
The position of the fracture identifies and can pre-determine the nature of the abuse.
Whenever there is over identification with one or two of the four cardinal aspects within the Quadrat the result will be resort to self abuse or the victim role.
A Simple fracture of masculine energies from feminine energies results in:
The masculine approach (Power/Control) has no regard for responsibility- thereby delinquent in manner.
The feminine approach (responsibility and consequence) portions blame for what is done and subsequent shame of what results.
Within the negative or self destructive decision making process, this model identifies the role each of the cardinal points impersonate. I have allotted four cardinal roles accordingly which are:
Power= The role of Perpetrator (application of negative power: Manipulation):
Control=The role of Damning Judge (application of negative control: Punishment):
Responsibility=The role of the Enabler (application of negative responsibility: Blame.)
Consequence=The role of Victim (application of negative consequence: Guilt)

These roles with slight variation can be identified in all ten abuse cycles listed below, and are social role expressions of the Quadrat. The ten forms of abuse are: Psychological, denial of primal rights, gender and sexual, alcohol and drug, physical, emotional, racial and political abuse.

What the Quadrat is meant to highlight.
By applying this devise post facto to a case history it demonstrates how the Victim internalises the decision making process and splits off various aspects of the decisions within themselves combining any number, but never all of the four parts outlined above: Consequently, one part or fragment of the personality would sub-divide taking on the attributes of power and/or control while another fragment of the personality acquires the responsibility and/or a third takes on the consequence of their action. Thus ‘Dawn breaks the promise of dusk.’
Here are some explanations of abusive consequence of splitting the four decision making process:

Responsibility:
GUILT in the decision making process in Fig 1 occurs when a person takes on responsibility for something they have neither the power or control to alter.
Taking the BLAME is the willful act of taking on such responsibility.
BLAMING is giving someone else the responsibility (for a decision they may or may not have the power or control to implement).

Consequence:
Shame is the consequence of accepting others power and control.


The degree of fracturing indicates the degree of non alliance and subsequent self harm or self victimisation.
This device detects the change post facto and eventually helps identify what aspect of decision making can become the focus within the analysand in order to help a person reduce the frequency of victimisation self injury or self blame.
Separations of the decision making within a person.
My contention is that when young those who indulge in self abuse were themselves subject to traumatic abuse of some kind that fractured the decision making process into at least two parts and possibly three or four. However there may be some of the attributes of the separated parts still evident in the Ego and others have yet to be acknowledged and re-owned, as it were.
By identifying the separated qualities it enables the therapist to focus on what needs to be achieved by the client on a step by step basis to eventually become more in control of their own actions.
Last edited by sharibanflynn on Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I still work with people who are suicidal. my main interest is in sculpture via ceramics

stephen Neece
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Post by stephen Neece »

sharibanflynn

Thank you for all your insights, most helpful
Every inspiring ideal grasps for some perpetuating symbolism-seeks some technique for cultural manifestation which will insure survival and augment realization-and the cult achieves this end by fostering and gratifying emotion TUB

Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. »

jonsjourney wrote:While I claim no expertise in this area, it would seem that the integration of Eastern and Western thought is an evolutionary subject that did not end with the work of Carl Jung. While he was an integral part of the process, he seems to be far from the "last word" on the subject even among contemporary Jungian analysts.
I just ran across this post again and wanted to add to the pot:

Jung was the first depth psychologist to investigate the Eastern mind and associated experiences and concepts, and this is what gives him prominence in this area, that his was the "first word," so to speak, in the West that validated Eastern study and investigation so elicited more. He did not, however, agree with all Eastern practices and their particular value for Westerners, something to keep in mind when reading Jung and critiques of his ideas. As far as I know, too, Jung always worked from within his own analytical theories and structure of the psyche when interpreting Eastern mental and spiritual experiences.

Jung was also the first psychologist to investigate the association of quantum physics and the psyche. Whatever area of interest claimed his attention, psychology and myth included, Jung expanded then-current intellectual boundaries.

Cindy :D
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by Neoplato »

He sure liked alchemy. :wink:
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

sharibanflynn
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Post by sharibanflynn »

Thanks Cindy for the reminder of Jung’s limitations and point of perspective.
Having read the lot he wrote (except the Red Book!) I conclude succinctly but not without deep regard and having acquired much insight thanks to himself etc..that he leaves his reader suspended.. to ‘individuate’ as he would have it..holding the whole of opposites..Mmmmm . Now push the notion further..the ‘What if...’ there is a solution that resolves ..that also integrates and offers inner ability to cope? But such a notion would eliminate WANT.
But sure! Quest assumes finding or at least a goal, perhaps increased knowledge initiates whoever possesses same. ‘Want’ is essential in quest and in the learning but want continues to be a four letter word consuming its victims as does its twin ‘hope’ which is always tomorrow while despair is always now and clings to hopes underbelly as they finally managed to crawl from Pandora’s box.
:cry:
I still work with people who are suicidal. my main interest is in sculpture via ceramics

Ercan2121
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Post by Ercan2121 »

Andreas wrote:One of my favorites Ercan. :)
And this one's from Isaac Disraeli, my old friend;
A predilection for some great author, among the vast number which must transiently occupy our attention, seems to be the happiest preservative for our taste: accustomed to that excellent author whom we have chosen for our favourite, we may in this intimacy possibly resemble him. It is to be feared that, if we do not form such a permanent attachment, we may be acquiring knowledge, while our enervated taste becomes less and less lively. Taste embalms the knowledge which otherwise cannot preserve itself. He who has long been intimate with one great author will always be found to be a formidable antagonist; he has saturated his mind with the excellences of genius; he has shaped his faculties insensibly to himself by his model, and he is like a man who ever sleeps in armour, ready at a moment! The old Latin proverb reminds us of this fact, Cave ab homine unius libri: Be cautious of the man of one book!

from Curiosities of Literature, Volume IV

:twisted:

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Post by sharibanflynn »

Agreed! and point taken.. :oops:
I still work with people who are suicidal. my main interest is in sculpture via ceramics

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