The Mythicist Position

What needs do mythology and religion serve in today's world and in ancient times? Here we discuss the relationship between mythology, religion and science from mythological, religious and philosophical viewpoints.

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nandu
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Post by nandu »

Can any one of you tell me of a time when society was not economically driven?

Many of the classical works of art were created by court painters, who in reward for the patronage painted portraits of extremely uninteresting kings, queens and courtiers (maybe flattered them also... who knows?). How many great poets wrote poems extolling their patron kings? They knew which side their bread was buttered! (I know I am being brutal here, but the portrayal of the artist as a hero in search of bliss with no concern for money is too generalised, to my liking.)

As for the great architecture which was erected without consideration for economics, do not forget that many of them were constructed by kings to show off their wealth, with money which would have been better spent on the welfare of their subjects. There is a legend that Shah Jehan, after emptying the treasury for building the Taj Mahal (a monument in memory of his dead wife), cut off the hands of all the artisans who were engaged in building the structure, so that nothing so magnificent shall be built in future! Yet the building still stands as a World Wonder, no doubt due to the nameless, unfortunate artisans who contributed to it, and who I have no doubt were following their bliss.

I am making good money, in the pursuit of a job which is directly linked to extracting oil out of the ground, refining it, and transporting it. The oil is being burnt up all over the world contributing to global warming. The oil-rich countries are becoming richer in the process, and so is the company which I am working for, a private corporation.

Still, I am following my bliss. And I would still argue that the job I do is neutral.

Nandu.
Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavanthu

tat tvam asi
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Post by tat tvam asi »

That's an interesting perspective Balu. I have a hard time seeing how any one could rightly argue that you are not following your bliss. Hell, one could argue that Hitler was following his bliss. Doors opened where there wouldn't have been doors for anyone else. The whole environment seemed to open up and pave the way for him to do what he wanted to do. And it could have been blissful to him trying to rid the world of what he perceived as the evil swindling Jews. It's all about perspective. I tend to think that the mind has a lot to do with it. Call it the law of attraction call it whatever. It's blind to right and wrong, the subconscious simply tends to attract that which you're thinking and feeling the most. Negative thoughts and feelings attract negative circumstances. But the attracting happens regardless. And I feel that Campbell's observations about following one's bliss are ulimately tied up in the power of the human mind. It can go negative, positive, or perhaps neutral as you suggest.
"Scholars conjecture that a sense of divinity in Nature co-evolved with the first emergence of human consciousness, perhaps 100,000 years ago. The earliest god was Nature."

As far back as we are able to look into the past, says historian Colin Wilson, "human beings seem to have worshipped nature, and connected it to a higher spiritual reality, which they called god or the divine."

boringguy
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Post by boringguy »

Hi all,

Just wandering through, but had a quick thought. I'm reminded here of a quote I saw somewhere the other day that went something like this; ' whether you think you can or you think you can't, you are right'.

As to economics, it depends on how far one wants to consider the reach of the term, but there is no one who doesn't have a dog in this fight, right? Not as long as one is alive anyway. The difference between an egotistical corp. kingpin and a JPL scientist is the scope of their perspective. One, uses the collective to further the self, and the other uses the self to further the collective. They still both have a vested interest of some sort. No matter whether the look of that is economic or scientific, thats all one picture. The rest is just judgement from a perspective, and thats ok, just know it for what it is.

And thats back to tat's point I think, the important thing is the instillment in people of seeking and building their own perspective. Not an easy endevour in itself, given the nature of people, as evidenced by the history of religion itself, but an ideal gaining momentum in humanity, IMO.


bg
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Andreas
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Post by Andreas »

Arg!!

So many opinions and I would have to say, in advance, that everyone is right.
Can any one of you tell me of a time when society was not economically driven? - Nandu
Well society was always economically driven but there were some individuals also who decided not to be economically driven and last time I checked it was these people that propeled the human experience forward. A transformation of consciousness.

And there are more to be said about money. Money do not help you deal with inner problems and the stages of life we all have to go through. This is crucial.

I have to agree with you though and disagree with Jons when we say that art is not economically driven. Indeed I know from experience that art too is influenced by the economy. And when that happens society sounds like a broken record.
Still, I am following my bliss. And I would still argue that the job I do is neutral. - nandu
I cannot agree with this nandu. The job or the tool may be neutral but people are not perfect nor neutral, only God is beyond duality, the rest, we are just mortals struggling with fears and desires, security and other stuff. Because of that, I agree with Jons.
Justice is not blind, Religion is not monolithic and Science is not neutral....at least not in any reality that I have ever experienced. - Jons
This is the essence I believe.And, I think it is also very difficult to realize, despite the profession we practice, at the end we need to support that which resonates and feels right.
Last edited by Andreas on Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. »

Jon wrote:Where I agree with you is perfectly illustrated by what I am choosing to do...I am going into Community Counseling for my Master's degree. There is every chance that the amount of money I will earn will never really adequately compensate me for what it will cost to get there, but the intrinsic value of helping people who are suffering does not have an easily defined economic value.
Indeed, Jon, we two definitely come from the same place regarding our work. Look for a PM from me--I'm going to share with you my salary as a Master's level therapist in a community mental health center. Please stay seated for this one... :P

Cindy
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

jonsjourney
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Post by jonsjourney »

I fear we have sidetracked this fine discussion...my apologies for my role in that!

Economics is complex, as is the debate about ethics. No simple answers to be found, so we will keep talking and maybe, just maybe, one day all agree! But, I am not holding my breath! :lol:
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

boringguy
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Post by boringguy »

and maybe, just maybe, one day all agree!
Ohhh.... jj don't even hope for such a thing. Total agreement and bearing out of that would be ...... well, game over. :wink:



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nandu
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Post by nandu »

OK, like jon said, we have sidetracked this conversation enough.

If any of you want, we can start a thread on "Economics and ethics" in the 1K forum.

Nandu.
Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavanthu

Sad Sack
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Post by Sad Sack »

Wish I could but thats the reason for all the holidays everyone sees money signs $$$$$$

Einherjar
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Post by Einherjar »

Sad Sack wrote:Wish I could but thats the reason for all the holidays everyone sees money signs $$$$$$
It is important to not confuse personal cultural references relating to everyone, as it is limited to specific culture.

Easter marking the end of winter, and return of spring. Traditionally people travel to the mountain areas to experience winter before it leaves once more. Families hike trails and more or less just enjoy life as the experience it is.
Image

Summer solstice is celebrated by the gathering of people to watch the sunset, have a ritual fire ( Burning of Balder - god of nature, life and beauty ),
Image

Winter solstice with traditions as the mid-winter blòt ( sacrifice ). Still named Jul as in ancient times, the better known Christmas contain several Norse pagan rituals of reverence to the gods. Christmas caroling, burning of the "Yule" log, and so on, are to remind about gratitude for family and friends making it past difficulties met.
Image


The notion of holidays being a time where you shop more than you averagely shop other days, are the cultural traditions related to limited geography and time in history. You could say it represents, in reference to the cultures and people of the world, a curiosity of minor relevance. :wink:
Eyvitar firna - er maðr annan skal, þess er um margan gengr guma; heimska ór horskum - gerir hölða sonu - sá inn máttki munr.

Never place blame on man, because it happens to all. No matter how wise, a fool he becomes, when love steals his powers.

Hávamál

Evinnra
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Post by Evinnra »

Einherjar wrote:
The notion of holidays being a time where you shop more than you averagely shop other days, are the cultural traditions related to limited geography and time in history. You could say it represents, in reference to the cultures and people of the world, a curiosity of minor relevance. :wink:
Yes. :)

Welcome Einherjar, nice to see someone from your country on this forum. ( If I recall correctly we've had posts by people from Sweden and Danmark but not yet from Norway)
'A fish popped out of the water only to be recaptured again. It is as I, a slave to all yet free of everything.'
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Einherjar
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Post by Einherjar »

Scandinavians are more or less the same in nearly every way, even if we hate to admit it. The only reason why we are divided by national boundaries are because of some almost inherit rejection of being ruled. ( the closer people are to their leaders, the more control people have ).

I felt it was important to remind people about understanding own society in context, and as a subjective perception of reality. Even if different rituals and festivals around the world are celebrated in ignorance, they once originated and contained reason along with purpose. If I see something in India that I do not understand, I would be a fool to see it as a sign of having no reason or purpose because my limited knowledge says so. I believe humanity as rational in origin, while irrationality being the path we go.
Once we ate of hunger, now we eat motivated by various emotions.
Once we spoke to communicate information of importance, now we speak even if we have no story to tell.

The big question is not, and have never been, "what is the meaning of life?". As if anyone ever have known anything other than life, as it is existence itself. Every step forward is a mystery, while every step taken is a forgotten abstract imagined belief. To seek meaning and purpose to what we do not even fully understand or are able to comprehend, is just as absurd as thinking it is possible to know the unknown, or be certain of what is uncertain.

What purpose is there in asking a question without ability to comprehend that the answer is everywhere for those who bother open eyes and see.
Eyvitar firna - er maðr annan skal, þess er um margan gengr guma; heimska ór horskum - gerir hölða sonu - sá inn máttki munr.

Never place blame on man, because it happens to all. No matter how wise, a fool he becomes, when love steals his powers.

Hávamál

Ercan2121
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Post by Ercan2121 »

Einherjar,
Welcome to JCF forums. I'm a linguist particularly interested in languages.
In fact, I believe that myths are closely related to the language they have
been first told and written. Is it possible to share with us the dis-
tinguishing feature of Norwegian vis-à-vis English or other neighbouring
languages? Thanks in advance :-)

Einherjar
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Post by Einherjar »

Norwegian consist of a vast variety of different dialects. Some have traces far back, some are highly influenced by different newer languages. Besides having two official languages named Bokmål and Nynorsk, there are periodical versions of Old Norse, not forgetting the more ancient language commonly named here in Norway as just "Norrønt - Norse".

As a linguist I am sure you have some unique understandings about mythology. Language is as we know, only a sound representing a metaphor for group experiences. By that I mean when you use the word "Fjord", most people can pronounce it as well as associate some kind of postcard image with concept. But to really understand the word, you must have experienced the total scenario.

If there are some specific words, or distinct features, about the Norwegian language in relation to other languages, I can try to help to the best of my effort. I personally find it interesting to compare and examine interesting facts about language in general. :)
Last edited by Einherjar on Fri May 13, 2011 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Eyvitar firna - er maðr annan skal, þess er um margan gengr guma; heimska ór horskum - gerir hölða sonu - sá inn máttki munr.

Never place blame on man, because it happens to all. No matter how wise, a fool he becomes, when love steals his powers.

Hávamál

Ercan2121
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Post by Ercan2121 »

Einherjar,
What you say sounds so true,
especially the part related to
the word fjord and the scenario.
Freud once said that it is not
possible to interpret a dream
without making reference to
linguistic nuances and myths
are nothing less than public
dreams - again according to
Freud. Thank you for your
considerate answer :-)

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