Aggressive Secularism and Extreme Atheism

What needs do mythology and religion serve in today's world and in ancient times? Here we discuss the relationship between mythology, religion and science from mythological, religious and philosophical viewpoints.

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nandu
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Aggressive Secularism and Extreme Atheism

Post by nandu »

The Pope has warned Britain against "aggressive secularism" and "extreme atheism" (which I suppose means the atheism of those like Dawkins who are eager to promote their lack of faith) and likened it to Nazism. He has also urged England to go back to its "religious roots", by which he meant Catholicism, I suppose. Of course, if Britain were really to return to its roots, we should have venerable white-bearded druids (like Getafix from the Asterix comics) conducting sacrifices by the light of the solistice moon.

Thoughts?

Nandu.

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Post by Neoplato »

Of course, if Britain were really to return to its roots, we should have venerable white-bearded druids (like Getafix from the Asterix comics)-nandu
Those guys were French. :lol:

But seriously, why does there have to be an "extreme" anything? Does it all lay in the "dogmatix"?

Anything that promotes an "us and them" is a bad thing. :(
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nandu
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Post by nandu »

Neoplato wrote:Those guys were French. :lol:
Actually, they encompassed the whole of Europe. The Druidical religion was in force until the Roman conquest: then came the conversion of Constantine and the rise of Christianity's star.
Neoplato wrote: But seriously, why does there have to be an "extreme" anything? Does it all lay in the "dogmatix"?

Anything that promotes an "us and them" is a bad thing. :(
I agree one hundred percent. I don't believe in anything excessive. There is a Sanskrit poem:

"Karna died due to excessive generosity,
Duryodhana, due to excessive stinginess:
Ravana, due to excessive lust...
Avoid excess everywhere."

As for promoting us vs. them, this works for both the theists and the atheists. I think that the Pope had Dawkins in mind, when he used those words :wink: .

Anyway, Catholicism was virtually wiped out in England not due to any religious issues. King Henry VIII just wanted to get laid! :lol:

Nandu.
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Post by Neoplato »

Actually, they encompassed the whole of Europe. The Druidical religion was in force until the Roman conquest: then came the conversion of Constantine and the rise of Christianity's star. -nandu
:oops: I was talking about the cartoon.
Anyway, Catholicism was virtually wiped out in England not due to any religious issues. King Henry VIII just wanted to get laid!
Never thought of it quite like that before...but I can't disagree. :lol:
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Post by jonsjourney »

There is a very real crisis in the world's organized religious hierarchy. The pope is "doing his job" to try to preserve the old ethic and ideas that have built the house he literally and figuratively lives in. That is conservatism in action....stopping forward movement.

I am saying right here, right now, that I am biased. I am biased because I believe that Joseph Campbell realized, and now many, many others, now realize that there is no "one" answer to the question of god, God, gods, the transcendent, the mystery, the ground of all being, truth....all of it.

There was a time when the priest was the only one who could read and write. The mass population was at the mercy, an ironic term, of the pedagogical intent of the clergy. As our collective intelligence, and consciousness, grew we have gathered a greater and greater capacity to see the larger patterns and truths contained in the mythologies of human civilization for ourselves. We see the commonality of Eastern and Western, Northern and Southern progressive metaphysical thinking. As a result, the grip of the aged priest teacher weakens.

There used to be dragons in the caves and trolls under the bridge. The church personified and concretized evil in the form of the devil and demons. The new demon is the "secular humanist", or the "monist", or the atheist or agnostic. Perhaps the pope should grab a mirror and see whether or not pedophilia by Priests is perhaps a greater threat to the Sunday till than a few authors who want to discredit religion. If the church was acting honorably, honestly, and progressively, people like Dawkins would be largely irrelevant.

This pope, I am sorry to say, is a step backward in the progress of Catholicism. He is the antithesis to someone like the Dalai Lama. He is a strong, dogmatic conservative who wants to roll the world backward to a time when the church had more control, and more relevance. Benedict and his dogma are now irrelevant. The best thing that can come from this is that a few more people will see this and move on. The Vatican has plenty of artifacts...perhaps they could hock a few on Ebay and fill up those coffers again.
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

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Post by Neoplato »

The new demon is the "secular humanist", or the "monist", or the atheist or agnostic. -JJ
Neoplato to some...Demogorgon to others. :shock:

However, my actions are definitely not chaotic evil. :wink:
He is the antithesis to someone like the Dalai Lama.
Well you know what they always say...actions speak louder than words.

I wonder if the pope is as interested in the neuroplasticity of the brain like HH. :wink:
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Post by Cindy B. »

nandu wrote:Of course, if Britain were really to return to its roots, we should have venerable white-bearded druids (like Getafix from the Asterix comics) conducting sacrifices by the light of the solistice moon.
In defense of the Druids, however, my understanding is that human sacrifice came about near the end of their rule and as the last resort never a first. The survival of their way of life was at stake, so they had to try something. :P

And yep, nandu, King Henry was a man on a mission but no missionary, for sure. :wink:

Cindy
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by Clemsy »

The rhetoric on both sides would be a guideline violation here. :P

Sounds kind of like the "I know you are but what am I" of a seven year old. (Doesn't that sound like seven year olds know all about shadow projection? :lol: )

Unfortunately, the Vatican made a mess of its response to the child abuse issue by responding politically instead of by following the simple formula: WWJD?

That they changed their tune afterward just makes it sound more like posturing than sincerity.

The other side needs to do the live and let live thing. Even the most Catholic of countries are pretty progressive these days. Don't like the church? Don't be a member.

The church will either keep up with the evolution of society or it will get left behind. Vatican II reforms were a poor attempt at doing that. Benedict has the church firmly anchored in the past.

All the secularists have to do is wait patiently.
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Post by nandu »

Dawkins wanted to get the Pope arrested. Here's the news item:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 094310.ece

That's pretty aggressive!

I have read The God Delusion, and Dawkins definitely seems to be promoting an anti-religion: it seems that given an opportunity, he'll outlaw religion. I subscribe to the eSkeptic regularly, where Michael Shermer promotes Darwin as some kind of messiah and Dawkins as his priest. I think the rhetoric is rather overdone.

Secularism means the freedom to believe or not believe in God, Devil or the Flying Spaghetti Monster (apologies to jon!).

Nandu.
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Post by Andreas »

I am not sure what is funnier here.

The fact that secularists obey laws that are written from rich people to support their interests or that we have to take an oath (to a god that none believes anymore) before a trial begins?

I am not sure if that is the progressive, secular or religious society I want to live in.
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

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Post by jonsjourney »

Secularism means the freedom to believe or not believe in God, Devil or the Flying Spaghetti Monster (apologies to jon!). -nandu
"His Noodliness" is most revered in my secular humanist philosophy of life! :P
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Post by Neoplato »

"His Noodliness" is most revered in my secular humanist philosophy of life!
Hey JJ, can I be first meatball? Or is that reserved for those of the sauce? :lol:
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Post by jonsjourney »

Hey JJ, can I be first meatball? Or is that reserved for those of the sauce? -Neo
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Post by nandu »

I think some kind of aggressive secularism is required in India. The country has taken the "respect for all religions and appeasement of none" philosophy and converted it into "appeasement of all religions". In India, atheists are treated very unfairly. A famous actor refused to put his religion in his child's school application form (he hapened be an atheist) and the child was refused admission. Every school has prayer in the morning-what if some child doesn't want to? And all religions take out processions blocking roads at will, during festival days.

Initially, the appeasement was for the minorities (mainly the organised Muslim minority). They were treated as "vote banks". Then the majority Hindu hardliners also learned that they could translate religious fervour into votes. So you see the current India, divided on caste and religious lines. Definitely not what Gandhi lived (and died) for...

I think India requires some people like Dawkins and Hichens, to come out in the open and attack this cloying religiosity.

Nandu.
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Post by Andreas »

I think India requires some people like Dawkins and Hichens, to come out in the open and attack this cloying religiosity. - Nandu
I pretty much doubt that is the solution. But maybe in your country things are worse than it sounds.
Every school has prayer in the morning-what if some child doesn't want to? And all religions take out processions blocking roads at will, during festival days. - Nandu
It is the same here in Greece. And it happened to me more than once to be called to say the prayer when I was in school and of course I never said it because it didn't mean anything to me.

Ironically I was top of my class in theology. I was lucky there because the teacher really liked to be challenged.
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

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