The myth of progress.

What needs do mythology and religion serve in today's world and in ancient times? Here we discuss the relationship between mythology, religion and science from mythological, religious and philosophical viewpoints.

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Brekex
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The myth of progress.

Post by Brekex »

I believe one of the founding myths of our present ethical-monotheistic culture to be the myth of progress.

But...

I am curious.

What do you understand by the term "the myth of progress"?

Please discuss / share / opine / emote.

(terribly sorry if I made an error of judgement in placing this thread in this forum, it seemed the more appropriate one.)
"Look inside as far as the eye can't see."
-Brekex

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Post by jonsjourney »

Progress often implies linear time. We tend to think (at least in the Western tradition) that time moves in a direction that involves progress. We look around us and see advanced technology and assume that it is part of a progression of evolving thought and evolving biology. As a result, when we experience something that is not "contemporary", we often judge it as primitive or backward.

I think of that view as being "technocentric".

By the way, welcome Brekex!
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

Brekex
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Post by Brekex »

Yes, "progress" is linear and does imply unidirectional time (so snugly nestled in the sanction of entropic theory). But it also involves a towards, but towards what, though?

It also, in my listening, implies a betterment. But better needs a point of reference. This would imply a from.

From what to what?

Thanks for the welcome jonsjourney.
"Look inside as far as the eye can't see."
-Brekex

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Post by boringguy »

Yes, welcome Brekex,
From what to what? – Brekex

I would say, 'from simplicity to complexity'. From what we seem to be able to know of Nature in time, back to Neanderthal, back to primordial soup, back to a big bang, Nature has rewarded a path toward greater and greater complexity to a pinnacle of what at this moment of Now, seems to be the consciousness of us. Now it may be as James Jeans states, that we could be so far disconnected in this infinitesimally small portion of Nature, so as not to be able to garner even the remotest idea of the true totality, but from here, a path from simplicity toward complexity seems true. In all that it entails, we are this step in that path of complexity, and failure to embrace it, be it, is likely to lead to being selected against sooner than later.


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Post by N8N »

The myth of progress... Progression is a matter of prospective. If you look at time as motion or somthing that passes then progression is indeed a myth. We say that we travel thru time or pass thru time we see time as standing still as we progress thru it. So you can pass the time away or you can pass tru it. Like standing in a stream allowing the water to flow by or like a shallow pond you walk thru. Or a bird flying with a flea on its back...

I like to fly :wink:

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Post by A J »

"Simplify, simplify, simplify." That old advice from Thoreau might be well taken today. The linear "progression" towards complexity seems to be leading us into another enantiodromia where we think in extremes of one or the other. Much good has come from the progress of technology, but we have lost some things along the way.

There must be some way to reach a synthesis.

AJ
"Sacred space and sacred time and something joyous to do is all we need. Almost anything then becomes a continuous and increasing joy."

A Joseph Campbell Companion: Reflections on the Art of Living

boringguy
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Post by boringguy »

Hi AJ,

Without digressing to far into paradox of good-bad, let me just remind that I tend to come from the view that we can make personal choices relative to good-bad with some judgment, and then we can make choices from a communal consensus, though with less certainty of judgment, but in the bigger picture Nature ultimately decides ‘value’ in this game of time and space.

Which brings me back to humans and complexity, I think.

We are the product of millions of years of fear driven survival that more or less depended on a realization and overriding value of self. But human consciousness now, as the asker of questions, has the ability to step outside of that self and as such consciously understand and accept a responsibility to an integrated whole picture. This requires developing a maturity beyond a rather childish little self, and we are a work in progress of just that at this point. Today’s institutionalized society in many ways is the reflection of little self, but our strengths toward maturity are also the products that have come from that path. City state society, industrialization, science and technology, are some of the very things that remove the minute by minute concern of survival, and stepping outside of that emanate and immediate need to survive is now the only way that we will bring the complexity that is our potential, to Nature in an integrated way. So that’s the human challenge of the moment, to consciously move beyond the innate survival response to being an integrated complexity, or ‘not to be’. Anyway that maturity is a function of a more complex individual not one that is less so, IMO. I do completely agree with Thoreau however, the path to that maturity does require one to somehow learn to see beauty and hear silence.


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Post by A J »

Stepping outside of that emanate and immediate need to survive is now the only way that we will bring the complexity that is our potential, to Nature in an integrated way. So that’s the human challenge of the moment, to consciously move beyond the innate survival response to being an integrated complexity, or ‘not to be’. Anyway that maturity is a function of a more complex individual not one that is less so, IMO. I do completely agree with Thoreau however, the path to that maturity does require one to somehow learn to see beauty and hear silence.
Good response. I might say that the need to simplify our daily lives in the middle of an increasingly complex world is a paradox as well, a complementarity rather than an either/or choice, and part of that" integrated way."
AJ
"Sacred space and sacred time and something joyous to do is all we need. Almost anything then becomes a continuous and increasing joy."

A Joseph Campbell Companion: Reflections on the Art of Living

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Post by Brekex »

"From simplicity to complexity."

I do not find that answer satisfying, nor juicy, nor metaphorical. This is not a personal matter, please understand.

Allow me to explain.

First of all, it is a naturalistic answer. As all things in nature move towards complexity, according to a physical vision. This is like saying that the root of personification (Zeus = thunderbolt) is merely the expresion of the basic survival fear. Though this is not necessarily incorrect, it is not quite mythical thinking either. Yes, maybe explaining the terrible thunderbolt as the wrath of some personified (sympathetic / identifiable) god was necessary in order to survive the stress of getting through the day (or night). But the story of Zeus and his thunderbolts is ever so much more deep, delicious and succulent than that.

It has already been mentioned in this thread that linear thinking is established in the entropic model. Entropy, in a nutshell, is the natural tendency for dynamic systems to move from simplicity to complexity. So if linear progression is born of simplicity to complexity and one wonders at where that progression is coming from and moving towards, if the answer is in itself "simplicity to complexity", then we have entered into a self-referential solipsism. An ouroboros of imagery. Ironically enough, the progression of this discussion has eaten its own tail and progresses no further.

One could say that as humans we have moved from a self-image of submission to nature towards an image of domination of our environment, or from participation to abstraction... but even that is flat, banal and conceptual.

Come, come now. We are before the presence of myths. Let us not be rational and literal. Did not Dionysos have Pentheus dismembered for displaying too much wit before a mystery?
"Look inside as far as the eye can't see."
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Post by Brekex »

N8N wrote:The myth of progress... Progression is a matter of prospective. If you look at time as motion or somthing that passes then progression is indeed a myth. We say that we travel thru time or pass thru time we see time as standing still as we progress thru it. So you can pass the time away or you can pass tru it. Like standing in a stream allowing the water to flow by or like a shallow pond you walk thru. Or a bird flying with a flea on its back...

I like to fly :wink:
And the flea thinks to itself: "The clouds, stars and Sun move around me. Verily I am the centre of the Universe."

I wonder what it would think if the bird got struck by lightning?
"Look inside as far as the eye can't see."
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Post by boringguy »

This is not a personal matter, please understand. – Brekex

Not taken personally, if fact I apologize since it seems I have misunderstood the intent of the question from the beginning. So let me see if I can get on track.

To me Nature encompasses all that is realized or potentially so in time and space and as such all of that can only comprise a naturalistic answer. Even myth. So I understand the question in one of two ways.

First, a little like asking me while I’m still reading a novel to stop in the middle and tell you the rest of the story, it’s just an exercise in imagination and hope. That’s cool, those are both good things to expand in one’s repertoire.

If secondly however, you are asking me to penetrate the Mystery beyond Nature with any degree of certainty that exceeds a singular subjective imagination, then that would only seem to be asking me to be rather presumptuous and arrogant, and well since I’m not quite that gullible, I would have to respond with some sort of quip such as, “Disappointment builds character”. But of course I am humble enough to admit to anyone that if they profess to have knowledge, evidence or wisdom that penetrates the mystery with some sort of certainty……then please share…..I give them my full attention.

Or perhaps a little more mythic approach to the question would simply go something like this. As Campbell said, ‘the world is a mess, a perfect mess’, to which I might add, ‘and damned likely to stay that way’.


:)


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Post by N8N »

Brekex wrote:
N8N wrote:The myth of progress... Progression is a matter of prospective. If you look at time as motion or somthing that passes then progression is indeed a myth. We say that we travel thru time or pass thru time we see time as standing still as we progress thru it. So you can pass the time away or you can pass tru it. Like standing in a stream allowing the water to flow by or like a shallow pond you walk thru. Or a bird flying with a flea on its back...

I like to fly :wink:
And the flea thinks to itself: "The clouds, stars and Sun move around me. Verily I am the centre of the Universe."

I wonder what it would think if the bird got struck by lightning?
Dinners ready.

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Post by Brekex »

boringguy wrote:

Or perhaps a little more mythic approach to the question would simply go something like this. As Campbell said, ‘the world is a mess, a perfect mess’, to which I might add, ‘and damned likely to stay that way’.
Heh... it certainly seems as though it is a mess. It probably will remain so.
boringguy wrote:
I apologize since it seems I have misunderstood the intent of the question from the beginning.
I am starting to think that it was my fault. I made an open-ended question with implied conditionals that I did not make clear. Hmmmm... it feels as though I laid a trap. That's not very fair, is it? Then again, one can certainly gain much from falling into traps. That would be a Trickster move, heh.
boringguy wrote:
First, a little like asking me while I’m still reading a novel to stop in the middle and tell you the rest of the story, it’s just an exercise in imagination and hope. That’s cool, those are both good things to expand in one’s repertoire.
Something like that. Except that instead of a projection of what may come next (as the future is the future and requires too much judgement to attempt to divine), I would ask something more along the lines of: "What is the underlying theme?" or "What is the story pointing towards, trying to get at?" Again, not a literal question of future projections.

Certainly no Hope. That is a blinding and silly matter. Like a carrot in front of an ass.

A living myth is necessarily invisible. Like Hades. We are living the myth of progress, so it is invisible. We cannot use our eyes or our reason to penetrate this, get a glimpse of it. But by use of imagination, the instrument of the soul (Thomas Moore, James Hillman, etc) we can at least have small epiphanies, minor insights which allow us to begin to grasp the invisible.

And no, fret not, I am not asking to penetrate into Nature and her profound mysteries. Those we just experience and enjoy (or suffer).

Thank you for not taking this personally. My concern (in as far as these words go) is neither you nor I, but that third that is a part and apart from us that is constellated from this encounter. Like a puzzle we work at together.
"Look inside as far as the eye can't see."
-Brekex

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Post by N8N »

A living myth is necessarily invisible. Like Hades. We are living the myth of progress, so it is invisible. We cannot use our eyes or our reason to penetrate this, get a glimpse of it. But by use of imagination, the instrument of the soul (Thomas Moore, James Hillman, etc) we can at least have small epiphanies, minor insights which allow us to begin to grasp the invisible.
A living myth is just an illusionary world created by someone else that you believe to be true. Like "The Matrix" when the illusion becomes your reality only logic and reason will seperate the two. Using imagination to grasp the invisable in the hope of an epithany would not be my first choice, but that is me. Like a priest who discovers there is no god... what does he do, who can he tell, who will ever believe him? And what can he do with the knowledge? Does he tell his people who rely on his words for faith and comfort? What will they think or say if he tells them everything the know is wrong and was a lie? That the Emperor just used Apollo to control them. But the work that the priests do helps people and it teaches them to be good and kind. What to do....

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Post by boringguy »

Heh... it certainly seems as though it is a mess. It probably will remain so. –Brekex
And who’s to presume how to properly improve upon a perfect mess? I think its just a matter of being that, one myth, one smile, and yes even one dollar at a time.

Then again, one can certainly gain much from falling into traps. That would be a Trickster move, heh. – Brekex
Ahh, the trickster, one of my favorite archetypes. :wink:


Certainly no Hope. That is a blinding and silly matter. Like a carrot in front of an ass. – Brekex

It’s always odd to me, the number of people I run across with this sort of a concept of hope. I only guess that it stems from realizing that many people do hope for someone or something to make their life, their happiness, what they think it should be, and that indeed is a pretty elusive carrot. I explain my own concept a bit more like this;
Clemsy;

I've come to think that all wisdom is to be found, here and there, in the work of Terry Pratchett. The following is a conversation between Death and his granddaughter, Susan, on this topic. In Hogsfather, there is an attempt to do away with Pratchett's Discworld Santa parallel. Death tells Susan that if this was successful, the Sun would not have risen:


Quote:
"Really? Then what would have happened, pray?

A MERE BALL OF FLAMING GAS WOULD HAVE ILLUMINATED THE WORLD.

"Ah," said Susan dully. "Trickery with words. I would have thought you'd have been more literal minded than that."

I AM NOTHING IF NOT LITERAL MINDED. TRICKERY WITH WORDS IS WHERE HUMANS LIVE.

"All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable."

REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.

"Tooth fairies? Hogsfathers? Little---"

YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.

"So we can believe the big ones?"

YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.

"They're not the same at all!"

YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE ALL THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET--- Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME... SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.

"Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point---"

MY POINT EXACTLY.

She tried to assemble her thoughts.

THERE IS A PLACE WHERE TWO GALAXIES HAVE BEEN COLLIDING FOR A MILLION YEARS, said Death, apropos of nothing. DON'T TRY TO TELL ME THAT'S RIGHT.

"Yes, but people don't think about that," said Susan. Somewhere there was a bed...

CORRECT. STARS EXPLODE, WORLD'S COLLIDE, THERE'S HARDLY ANYWHERE IN THE UNIVERSE WHERE HUMANS CAN LIVE WITHOUT BEING FROZEN OR FRIED, AND YET YOU BELIEVE THAT... A BED IS A NORMAL THING. IT IS THE MOST AMAZING TALENT.

"Talent?"

OH, YES. A VERY SPECIAL KIND OF STUPIDITY. YOU THINK THE WHOLE UNIVERSE IS INSIDE YOUR HEADS.

"You make us sound mad," said Susan. A nice warm bed...

NO. YOU NEED TO BELIEVE THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?

Believing in things that aren’t true, how else can they become? That’s what hope is about, framed of course by the understanding that ‘all of the best intentions in the world aren't as meaningful as a single action’.



"What is the underlying theme?" or "What is the story pointing towards, trying to get at?" Again, not a literal question of future projections. – Brekex
So, not sure if one necessarily sees this answer as a literal future projection, but the best I have is that Nature is a playing out in Time of wishing to be known. And we are also that.

Or maybe this is all just kindergarden of sorts.


A living myth is just an illusionary world created by someone else that you believe to be true. –N8N

I don’t know, I guess I’m just more of a red pill person, but I might wonder that, perhaps 'this' is just an illusionary world created by us that we believe is true.

Using imagination to grasp the invisable in the hope of an epithany would not be my first choice, but that is me. –N8N
‘to each his own’. Thats 8) but isn't that a big part of myth and ritual?

Like a priest who discovers there is no god... –N8N

Hmm I have to wonder, this priest has been to the bottom of the rabbithole and back? Or perhaps ‘God’ just needs a little bigger box?


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