The Spirit Molecule

What needs do mythology and religion serve in today's world and in ancient times? Here we discuss the relationship between mythology, religion and science from mythological, religious and philosophical viewpoints.

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romansh
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Post by romansh »

Neoplato wrote:They acknowledge that experience changes the wiring of the brain, but there is also evidence that meditation is also effective. I'm sure you could send them an email and tell them why you disagree. :wink:
I don't remember disagreeing Neo. But if you want me to I will try and oblige. ;)
My point is our neural pathways change from the moment we have them, to the moment our neural pathways start to decompose.

Sure meditation changes them, some even claim for the better. So does the rest of the universe.

I can recommend Steven Pinker's The Stuff of Thought for those inerested in words etc and how our brain migh create them.
While cross-sensory metaphors (e.g., "loud shirt," "bitter wind" or "prickly laugh") are sometimes described as "synesthetic," true neurological synesthesia is involuntary.
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"

ALOberhoulser
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Post by ALOberhoulser »

How did this turn into a debate about free-will??

Is there some residue of an unfinished debate here - decomposing?

Won't the determinist oblige that the act of taking DMT is an act of free-will??

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Post by boringguy »

Hi Al, all,
I thought the idea of neuroplasticity pointed more toward the effect of the experience - especially as a result of "suffering" in the mystical sense - therefore making the whole thing enigmatic (to suffer into being a new consciousness - seems to be against current thinking, at best)... – Al
Or at least against current ‘liking’. Yet the idea of the ‘Dark Night of the Soul’ has been around for a while it seems… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Night_of_the_Soul


Still not clear how I feel about it - a 'shortcut' to an "ah-ha" moment isn't the same... - Al
Interesting that Strassman, the scientist himself, said that in the end he had misgivings about giving this experience as a scientific endeavor, rather than for the sake of just the experience itself. Obviously everyone isn’t ready for the same thing at the same time, but, although I have no personal experience with DMT, I think of this, as in the case of Ayahuesca, as a tool of perception building that in its best use should probably be applied at the right time and dose and guidance in ones path. Many cultures over time have used substances in similar fashion. The trouble in our society is that generally there is no support for that, and very little for the work that leads up to that, and so one is on their own to decide about the dragon society has built. Of course nothing new in that picture. But to me, much like Bliss, it’s not just about some kind of euphoria, there is still the coming back with something. As for a ‘shortcut’, well knowledge has given us better ways to do many things, the trouble sometimes is in understanding what we understand, no? In the end for me, somewhere there is still some safety as well in ‘to each their own’, so I go with that as a default. I mean whos to say what are the proper nuances of a hero journey?



bg
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ALOberhoulser
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Post by ALOberhoulser »

GREAT referrence to Dark Night of the Soul , BG! WoW :shock:
The main idea of the poem can be seen as the painful experience that people endure as they seek to grow in spiritual maturity and union with God.

from the above link
No one seems to like suffering - that whole thing is an oxymoron, huh? I guess it might be better stated that no one wants to say, "suffering has it's good points," maybe they'd be thought of as a bit of a sadomasichist.

We don't make the rules - we just have to play by them :wink:

I found this interesting from the wikipedia link:
Psalms 13, 22, and 44 display King David, the 'man after God's own heart' undergoing serious confusion before and anguish with God, yet this is not condemned or mentioned as being unfaithful, but rather as the only measure of faith that David could have in the face of such withering apparent abandonment.

Rather than resulting in permanent devastation, the dark night is regarded by mystics and others as a blessing in disguise, whereby the individual is stripped (in the dark night of the senses) of the spiritual ecstasy associated with acts of virtue.
I think you have a good grip on the thrill-ride here, BG:
In the end for me, somewhere there is still some safety as well in ‘to each their own’, so I go with that as a default.
I agree, but this film was about an experiment where dosage was administered to patients, by a doctor in a clinical setting with a nurse & crash cart right there. One guy said that really made it more enjoyable, knowing he wouldn't die (if you can imagine saying, "this might kill you in your quarters, but dammit Jim. I'm a DOCTOR and you're in the sick bay) :lol:

All joking aside, no doctor is going to enlighten the Dark Night of the Soul , but I bet there are snake oil salesmen that will say they have just the stuff...

boringguy
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Post by boringguy »

maybe they'd be thought of as a bit of a sadomasichist. – Al
And maybe they will end up realizing that they are the lucky ones.

From wiki;
The 16th century Christian contemplative, St. John of the Cross, called this phase "the dark night of the soul" for the same reason: the night is dark because it is overwhelmingly clear that neither God nor the soul nor the self as we knew them are any longer to be found. There is instinctive recoil and withdrawal: nothing seems sufficiently worth doing or caring about without them.
These parallel experiences across faiths have led to speculation that the Dark Night is a common spiritual or mystical state or stage which is independent of the specific belief system. The Buddhist author Daniel Ingram, who also invokes St. John, uses the term "maps" for the sequence of mental states[7]:
The Christian maps, the Sufi maps, the Buddhist maps of the Tibetans and the Theravada, and the maps of the Khabbalists and Hindus are all remarkably consistent in their fundamentals. (…) These maps, Buddhist or otherwise, are talking about something inherent in how our minds progress in fundamental wisdom that has little to do with any tradition and lots to do with the mysteries of the human mind and body.
And DMT might just nestle in there very nicely at some point.



but I bet there are snake oil salesmen that will say they have just the stuff... - Al

No doubt there is plenty of snake oil, but if we fundamentally reject it all, then we’ll never know when someone emerges from the forest with something of real value either. But I'm with you, I haven't found any pink pills yet, only tools.


bg
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ALOberhoulser
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Post by ALOberhoulser »

It's just not economically viable to say, "to suffer can be good for the soul"; too many people want the high life. They want to feel good and equate happiness with monetary gain. That's definately present in the movie, because the good Dr. says nothing about what the physical affects of taking the drug are (I'm guessing it's got to read bad when looking at a person's vitals during the "trip")

interesting idea - to map the "trip" :shock:

Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

It's just not economically viable to say, "to suffer can be good for the soul"; too many people want the high life. They want to feel good and equate happiness with monetary gain.-Al
Nothing like the "dark night of the soul" to purge all such nonsense from someone's thinking. :wink:
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

ALOberhoulser
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Post by ALOberhoulser »

I like the idea that our society "values alert, problem solving consciousness and it devalues all other states of consciousness..."
"any kind of consciousness that isn't related to production or consumption of material goods is stigmatised today..."


...In the movie, Timothy Leary gets the role (posthumously) of the poster boy for failure against that type of propaganda - is there still ground that can be gained in that battle, or have we been inundated with the above values and find ourselves going along?

ALOberhoulser
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Post by ALOberhoulser »

My favorite quote in the movie is where the woman is describing the experience, saying:
I felt like a caveman in a computer lab!
Hilarious!

ALOberhoulser
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Post by ALOberhoulser »

A good online article by Ralph Metzner, Ph.D. :
Abstract— Western psychotherapy and indigenous shamanic healing systems have both used psychoactive drugs or
plants for healing and obtaining knowledge (called “diagnosis” or “divination” respectively). While there are
superficial similarities between psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy and shamanic healing with hallucinogenic
plants, there are profound differences in the underlying worldview and conceptions of reality.

http://psychonautdocs.com/docs/Metzner% ... Plants.pdf

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