Power Of Myth - Reference to Peter II

What needs do mythology and religion serve in today's world and in ancient times? Here we discuss the relationship between mythology, religion and science from mythological, religious and philosophical viewpoints.

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EthanT99
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Power Of Myth - Reference to Peter II

Post by EthanT99 »

Hello,

In the "Love and The Goddess" Episode of the Power Of Myth with Bill Moyers, Campbell mentions a passage from 2nd Epistle of Peter where he basically says all prior myths are now alive in Jesus Christ.

I thought this sounded interesting and looked for the passage, but could not find it.

Does anybody know what he is referring to here?

Thanks!

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Post by ALOberhoulser »

I'm guessing - 2nd Peter 1:16
16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
KJV
Here's another translation in the Revised Standard Version:
16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

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Post by EthanT99 »

ALOberhoulser wrote:I'm guessing - 2nd Peter 1:16
Hi ALOberhoulser,

Thanks, I did come across that one and it was the definitely closest match I could find too. Still though, it seemed different than what he was saying.

I was also wondering if perhaps he was quoting a gnostic gospel, as some of the titles of those books contain the names of his Disciples , as well. Nothing matched II Peter, though. There was an Acts of Peter, but no luck in that one.

Hmmmmm......

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Post by ALOberhoulser »

If you read 2nd Peter 1:16-21,
16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased," 18 we heard this voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. 19 And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
It makes sense, to me what Prof. Joe was saying - but I don't have the POM episodes to look at for myself. So, it makes sense to me, but that doesn't help you one bit - does it? :)
Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are a part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.
~Max Planck

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Post by ALOberhoulser »

The wikipedia article - Second Epistle of Peter - might help with some insight into what Campbell knew about what he was referring to...

...notice the external links at the bottom of the page to outside sources, too.

Maybe someone else here can be more precise as to exactly what he was referring.

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Post by EthanT99 »

ALOberhoulser wrote:It makes sense, to me what Prof. Joe was saying - but I don't have the POM episodes to look at for myself. So, it makes sense to me, but that doesn't help you one bit - does it? :)
Well, here's the issue I'm having. Here is a quote of Fredrich Von Schelling:

“Hence, the polytheistic mythologies represent a stage (or rather, a series of stages) in a historical progression towards the manifestation of the second Adam in the ultimate religion of Christ. In the heathen religions, Christ is implicit; in the Old Testament, prophesied; and in the New Testament, revealed. Thus, Christianity is innate in human life and as old as the world.”

I think this a real clear way of stating how the myths are alive in Christ, and earlier myths implied Christ, and it in no way invalidates earlier myths as false, etc.

I thought it would be great if there was something in the Bible that said it just as clear as Schelling did, and as clear as Joe made it sound in POM.

However, I usually see the above quote from Peter II used to invalidate myths, or show that they are false and that Christ is the one true way, which makes it evident it can be taken in other ways.

So, it would be cool to see a passage that states clearly that both Christ and earlier myths represent the same truths (albeit on different levels).

I'm actually having vague memories of doing this same search 15+ years ago when I first saw POM! ;-)

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Post by EthanT99 »

ALOberhoulser wrote:The wikipedia article - Second Epistle of Peter - might help with some insight into what Campbell knew about what he was referring to...

...notice the external links at the bottom of the page to outside sources, too.

Maybe someone else here can be more precise as to exactly what he was referring.
This reminded me of another question about Origen I had recently. I'll have to start another thread ;-)

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Post by Myrtle »

ALOberhoulser wrote: It makes sense, to me what Prof. Joe was saying - but I don't have the POM episodes to look at for myself.
Here's the quote from The Power of Myth video
You read the Second Letter of Peter and he says "those forms which were merely mythological forms in the past are now incarnate and actual in our Savior." - J. Campbell

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Post by ALOberhoulser »

...and??? That's it - the only reference Campbell makes to 2 Peter? Does he mention it anywhere else?

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Post by Myrtle »

ALOberhoulser wrote:...and??? That's it - the only reference Campbell makes to 2 Peter? Does he mention it anywhere else?
Not that I'm aware of.

It's phrased a little differently in The Power of Myth book:
Read the text where it is declared that "those forms which were merely mythological forms in the past are now actual and incarnate in our Savior." J. Campbell

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Post by Neoplato »

Because of that experience, we have even greater confidence in the message proclaimed by the prophets. You must pay close attention to what they wrote, for their words are like a lamp shining in a dark place—until the Day dawns, and Christ the Morning Star shines in your hearts.
I think this was 2 Peter 20.

This seems closer to me to
those forms which were merely mythological forms in the past are now actual and incarnate in our Savior." J. Campbell
And this is why.

Because of that experience, -(Actual)

we have even greater confidence in the message proclaimed by the prophets.-(Myths)

You must pay close attention to what they wrote, for their words are like a lamp shining in a dark place (Once understanding is gained)

—until the Day dawns, and Christ the Morning Star shines in your hearts. -(incarnate in our savior)[
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

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Post by EthanT99 »

That's definitely the correct quote from POM that myrtle put up.

It also does seem to be implied within Peter II, was just hoping it was stated more explicitly.

Anybody know if a similar message is given elsewhere in the New Testament?

Also, noticed in NeoPlato's reply: "Christ the Morning Star"? Wasn't Lucifer also compared to the Morning Star?

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Post by eight bits »

The published version of The Power of Myth isn't a raw transcript, of course. I think there was an opportunity for editorial correction of those misrecollections that inevitably plague fluent conversation, even prepared fluent conversation. The exchange in the published book goes:

--

CAMPBELL: ...And so, when you stand before the cathedral of Chartres, you will see over one of the portals of the western front an image of the Madonna as the throne upon which the
child Jesus sits and blesses the world as its emperor. That is precisely the image that has
come down to us from most ancient Egypt. The early fathers and the early artists took over
these images intentionally.

MOYERS: The Christian fathers took the image of Isis?

CAMPBELL: Definitely. They say so themselves. Read the text where it is declared
that "those forms which were merely mythological forms in the past are now actual and
incarnate in our Savior." The mythologies here referred to were of the dead and resurrected
god: Attis, Adonis, Gilgamesh, Osiris, one after the other. The death and resurrection of the
god is everywhere associated with the moon, which dies and is resurrected every month. It is
for two nights, or three days dark, and we have Christ for two nights, or three days in the
tomb.

--

So, if one or the other spoke of an epistle, and that reference was edited out, then I think it is reasonable to suspect that that was the correction of an error. I also think that Campbell's quotation marks are misleading, and that Campbell was paraphrasing a Church Father, not offering a verbatim translation.

I propose Saint Augustine in his Retractiones (I, xiii), who wrote “The very thing which is now called the Christian religion existed among the ancients also, nor was it wanting from the inception of the human race until the coming of Christ in the flesh, at which point the true religion, which was already in existence, began to be called Christian.”

There are other "semina verbi" (seed of the Word) passages in the early Church fathers. For example, here's a page of Justin Martyr, Second Apology, for your mining pleasure:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... ology.html

I think the Augustine better matches Campbell's apparent paraphrase, both in its open-ended past and its direct reference to the Incarnation as the other end-point. But the basic idea was common enough that there might be a better match still out there in the early Christian writings.

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Post by Clemsy »

Eight Bits, very intriguing.
“The very thing which is now called the Christian religion existed among the ancients also, nor was it wanting from the inception of the human race until the coming of Christ in the flesh, at which point the true religion, which was already in existence, began to be called Christian.”
That reads so well that I would be greatly surprised if it also isn't considered profoundly heritical by those with less knowledge and... imagination.

Excellent post.
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Post by Neoplato »

"Christ the Morning Star"? Wasn't Lucifer also compared to the Morning Star?-Ethan
That struck me as odd as well. I don't know if it is in all versions.

Here's another version:
19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

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