Buddhism - first WORLD religion?

What needs do mythology and religion serve in today's world and in ancient times? Here we discuss the relationship between mythology, religion and science from mythological, religious and philosophical viewpoints.

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ScottDrums
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Buddhism - first WORLD religion?

Post by ScottDrums »

On what basis does Joseph Campbell declare that Buddhism is the first world religion?

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Post by jonsjourney »

Scott...

I would ask that you provide Joe's quote in context so that we could investigate this idea further.
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Post by ScottDrums »

I heard it said in the Mythos video title "The Enlightened One". Susan Sarandon states in the beginning that Joseph Campbell considers Buddhism the first WORLD religion followed by Christianity. I know certainly Hinduism predates Buddhism, but I'm wondering why he considered Buddhism the first world religion and not Hinduism.

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Post by jonsjourney »

From my understanding then, the claim is made that one is born a Hindu, but one chooses to be a Buddhist.
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Post by Myrtle »

Here's a Campbell quote from Thou Art That (pgs 61-62):
Christianity, as we understand, is one of the three world religions. The first was Buddhism, which began in the late sixth or early fifth century B.C...Such religions as Hinduism, Judaism, or Shinto are religions not of creed but of birth. These represent two entirely different orders of religion, for the former is credal and the latter is ethnic. - J. Campbell
Last edited by Myrtle on Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by ScottDrums »

Then the comment has nothing to do with how widespread the religion became?

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Post by Clemsy »

Exactly. Ethnic religions don't really proselytize. Buddhism, Christianity and Islam cross ethnic boundaries.

The ethnic religions say, "This is our way." Buddhism says (I believe), "This is a way." Christianity and Islam say, "This is THE way."
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Post by ScottDrums »

Thanks all, a lot of good ideas helping me here. I just gotta say, my experience in zen Buddhism has been of a training of the mind. I've never been persuaded to profess a particular belief so to say. I gotta admit that prior to this conversation I was not sure that any profession of belief is at the heart of it at all. But I do hold a strong belief in the oneness of life. I suppose that may be what Campbell was referring to.

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Post by JamesN. »

Hello Scottdrums and all.

If I may I would respectfully like to add something. This is a great discussion sharpening these distintions and something important I feel that is worth extra emphasis here. And I hope this addition may be of some value to ScottDrums sincere inquiry.

The ambiguity, misunderstanding, and misinformation concerning perceptive assumption in this area of spiritual human inquiry is one of the direct causes that leads to the mess and sufferings of the world that Joseph Campbell references again and again throughout his work. The more these kinds of clarifications and illuminations are brought into focus on the center stage of discourse; the healthier the world dialogue becomes. Jon, Myrtle, and Clemsy; and ScottDrums nail this, in my opinion .

A small example might be for instance that the assumption of the Good Book; Bible; Holy Book; etc. is a whole self-contained piece of literature referred to as the " Word of God " when in actuality it is a collection of pieces assembled over time. Furthermore; also left out of reference is whose interpretation as to point of view is expressed within it's context; ( for instance the omission of the later discovered Gnostic Gospels or Gospel of Thomas if you will ). ( One might say liberal or conservative depending on which perch of history you are viewing from; and the concretizing interpretative aspect Joseph Campbell addresses via history versus metaphor. ) One must also consider that things evolve over time.

History is like the layer of an onion; and if you look at places like India , China, Africa, much less Europe or the New World of the Americas; then you absolutely have to include context in the overview.

For instance a topic today; ( I think ); is the acknowledgement of the validity of " Science " via Sir Issac Newton or the " Theory of Evolution " of Charles Darwin via " Intelligent Design "; as argumentative examples against religious Dogma. Joseph Campbell had an tremendous example of this ignorance when he referred to the American news media misrepresentation of the statue of the Japanese Gate Guardian and referred to it as a worshipped diety. But my favorite reference is to the difference between the western personalized approach to spirituality and the impersonal approach anywhere east of Suez.

Not to oversimplify this subject but my point here is in reference to your excellent effort to clarify; educate; and promote accurate understanding of important topical distinctions such as these. Joseph Campbell had no argument with these opposing poles of electromagnetic conversation; if you will. His reference of : Religion of the 2nd millenium BC being Science of the Day and having to catch up with the 2nd millenium AD proves this. Although historical perspective could possibly be seen as Cat-Herding I think he was spot-on here.

How relavent could all this be ? Consider the Arab-Spring, Israel , Palistine, or Sucide-bombers and the Taliban; Indian Hindu and Pakistaian Islamic tension; Catholic and Protestant relations in Northan Ireland; and any of the many other conditions of human spiritual disagreement playing out across the world stage. One can't of course forget the charming Crusades; The Inquisition; The Reformtion; the Islamic campaign of the Moors in Spain and down into Africa; and these are just a few examples.

Mixing politics and religion is the magic curse woven and cast by the Spin Doctors across the planet whose Spell must be broken by the intelligence of human understanding. I personally feel there is a battle of ideas playing out across the globe in these arenas.

I also feel they will be part of the coming much larger future discussion with the question addressed at it's core: " What does it mean to be a human being ? "

I hope this does not seem overly dramatic or over-stated; but to my way of thinking any critical analysis has to begin with the starting point of accurate information of what you are seeking and it's connection to other often interconnected concepts, dynamics, and sets of interrelaionships. I also hope it does not overburden the context of your threads intent. I must also add these are my opinions and any inaccuracy are of my humble imperfections and no one else.

Good solid insights you brought :!: 8) :D
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Post by jonsjourney »

Mixing politics and religion is the magic curse woven and cast by the Spin Doctors across the planet whose Spell must be broken by the intelligence of human understanding. I personally feel there is a battle of ideas playing out across the globe in these arenas. -James
Amen...or...indeed! :wink:

The muddy mess that has become "religitics" has got to go. I wonder if that term has been trademarked yet? If not...it's mine! :lol:
What does it mean to be a human being ?
Clearly, THE, if not one of THE most important questions we must continue to pursue here and elsewhere in our lives. A good place to start is to accept our beauty and our warts as being fundamental to this understanding of ourselves.
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

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Post by JamesN. »

Jon.

I wish words could express how important you and all my friends here have become to me and what all of you mean in my life. We all have our separate roads we must travel and sometimes alone. But to have a place like this to come to share noble thoughts with other noble souls has been one of greatest joys I have ever known.

As to the reference to the thread I do not know if this would be considered Daoist but I would rather think in terms of a plant that seeks the sun in how I would think of this website here. And as to the eternal death and rebirth cycle of one aspect of hinduism I am rather imbivalent other than as a possible metaphoric reference. I certainly have nothing but the deepest respect and highest regard for the Hindu religion. The devout spiritual commitment of Islam of some friends of mine are as decent and loving human beings as any I know. Christianity I have struggled with most of my life but of course in the deep psychonautic seach for my connection and it's meaning I have known countless dimensions full of wonderful and not so wonderful folks.

In the Haight-Ashbury period Richard Albert, ( also known as Babba Ram Das ); was very popular with the book " Be Here Now "; and as a reference there were lots of literary figures that many were interested in as well as people like Alan Watts and Zen Master D.T. Suszuki whom were some of the most highly regarded representatives active in Eastern thought when I was in San Fransisco at that time. I was so young and swimming in deeper oceans than I could possibly have imagined. I could walk down the street and see Alan Ginzberg or go by City Lights Bookstore and not really understand what I was looking at. I drove past Esalen several trips on Highway #1 looking down at Big Sir but it was not my time to know who Joseph Campbell was. And I really do not feel qualified to comment about the aspect of Zen Buddism in the discussion. And although I must say I admire what little I know of it's premise this was not where my journey lead.

One of the things Joe refers to is: " Don't judge " referring to the biblical quote about pulling the log out of your own eye before judging the splinter in someone else's. My own views on spirituality are kind of a patchwork quilt of sorts as apposed to an ideology and I think for each person that process of finding out what works for the individual is really part of the quest Joeseph campbell refers to in the hero's journey. So I will risk telling the Greek story about " Alexander the Great and Diogenes " whom had been the young conquerer's teacher. The story I heard for those unfamiliar that Diogenes; who although considered one of the great minds of Ancient Greece was very poor. He was sitting warming himself in the Sun one fine day when his former young student happened by. Alexander had become the most powerful figure in the world at that particular moment in time and looked down in pity at his old mentor. He proclaimed that he had the power to give him anything he desired and to just name his wish. " To which a rather aggravated reply returned: " Yes; could you please move; you are standing in the way of the sun. "

If this sounds a little too ambiguous I offer a little news item I came across the other day. It seems a little 12 year old girl named Jessie Joy Rees had just died of a brain tumor. It told of her courageous struggle using her facebook page encouraging fund raising and giving emotional support to others " to never give up " spoken until she passed and had resulted in a ground-swell of support across the internet. She had selflessly given her precious moment of life in reaching for the highest and most noble aspirations of the human spirit.

So what has that to do with here ? Does it matter ? My answer; " Absolutely ! You bet it does ! " In every walk of life; in every venue; every place you can imagine; people are searching for authenticity . In this place; with you people; the process of exploring Joseph Campbell's work is a Beacon for and of that affirmation. People are searching for something that speaks to them. It's in their posts. Many of them wouldn't come here otherwise. Certainly those that stay have found something; and whether they stay or go it speaks well of us when we assist them and certainly that most often happens. To be a part of that community is what I'm talking about.

Now I would never want to imply any feelings, thoughts or references that could be misinterpreted; however to me these are the things: Which are the Sun that I'm talking about. The Beacon that shines here. The Search that is it's nobility. How could I not be anything but grateful when others across the world suffer so much and yearn so deeply for answers to questions they do not know how to ask ?

Life is not about shelter from the world; but is described in the many versions of the age old story told by all great religions: " to find the thing you inwardly are "; as Joe said it. To live through the life stages in that knowledge; to participate in the sorrowfil/joy and joyful/sorrow that life is; with all that it brings; and the wonder that it is. ( Incidentitly Clemsy makes a very important distintion that I certainly affirm that in speaking for my own interpretation of Joseph Campbells' work is what I am referencing and not a literal statement of his voice. )

So if in my posts I stray from my subject in absent-minded befuddlement; or pontificate about how square pieces should fit in round holes please pardon my humble attempts at Relative Campellian Logic and humor my oblivious joy. I am like an old sailor returning to moor at last in the harbor of his life to rest and dream of the journeys of his youth with the companionship of like minds.

My very best to all :D
Last edited by JamesN. on Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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jonsjourney
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Post by jonsjourney »

James...

I think you have captured the spirit of this place.

There is little doubt that most of the folks who wander in here and stick around are seekers for lack of a better word. Granted, from time to time, we get the self-proclaimed prophets and those who claim to have the answers here too, but I have found that most of the folks who hang around to talk about the various topics that come up are people who are interested in growth.

For me, this has been a place where I have been able to take ideas that I have read, or heard, or my own experiences, and put them "out there" into a place where others are interested in similar kinds of themes. I have seen notions that I embraced torn to shreds and some notions explored with the result of a collective shrug of the shoulders. One thing is for certain, if there is such a thing, is that I try much harder today to check my information before just carelessly tossing it out there! There are more than a few sharp tacks in this box!

I guess that the thing I see happening here is the evolution of our consciousness. I do not believe that we (humans) are really capable of change or evolution unless we find our way to a more holistic understanding of ourselves. We have struggled for thousands of years under the dominion of structured thought. Certain authoritarian figures, whether religious or political (and too often mixed...religitics) controlled how we should think about the question of what makes us human.

Much of what happens here is a process of deconstruction, which is part and parcel to our age. Jung spoke often about how the repressed would manifest itself, regardless of how hard we tried to keep such things down in the darkness. I believe that we are all living in that age right now. It is possible that this age will last as long, if not longer, than the age of repression, which stretches pretty far back.

Not all that long ago, one would be hard pressed to find many people acknowledging just how powerful language is in determining reality. Not all that long ago, one would be hard pressed to find many who are openly critical of the Western political structures who did not have their own alternative system for sale. Not all that long ago, there was little concern about the mixing of profits with prophets.

Related to all of this, and to the examples in your post, is the seizing of the narrative. The stories were once provided, but today more and more are capable of writing their own story; and this is important, they are also capable of distributing that story without the permission of a stratified corporate structure. Of course, that ability could be quickly curtailed if the president pulled the plug on the internet, which they have the power to do. A bit scary, that one.

This notion of taking the narrative is a point of significant discomfort for some. This is why we see such strong reactions to relativism and postmodern thought. In a sense, these fears are warranted because the old ways are under attack and are losing the war. The old ways felt safe...secure....established. But the Hero's Journey is on a path of uncertainty...into the darkness. It is easy to see that very few enter the dark forest because it seems to be true that very, very few are returning with the boon. You did mention a few exceptions and it is in those examples that we find the Hero/Heroine of our age.

Circling back to this site and Campbell's work, for me it was Campbell's interpretations of Eastern thought that opened my mind to other worlds...indeed other narratives. Like anyone, Campbell did not always get it "right". After all, he was a man of his age and, like Jung, was steeped in Western culture to a significant enough degree to have his own biases. Still...here was a man who bravely challenged certain established dogmas and demonstrated how certain religious sects had simply taken the older established myths and rewritten them for a new phase of civilization. Blasphemy!!!

In a sense, we are truly living in the mythless age that Campbell identified. Science has supplanted the old narratives with hopeful dreams of facts and certainty. We have moved from a post-existence certainty to a two-feet-on-the-ground certainty, but have found this latest turn of the worm just as unsatisfying.

Maybe we are just insatiable? It is the rare bird that can just be...
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

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Post by JamesN. »

Jon, Wow.

As thoughtfully reflective; sensitively considered; and beautifully written as any post that I have ever seen here. It just invites meditation and discourse. ( At least for what I like. )

As to any resemblence to the spirit of this place I am afraid has been caught from others here in my exposure to kindness; free thought; and the symptoms that this disease displays. ( May I never recover from it's effects; and may it's contagiousness spread. The doctors prognosis is not hopeful for a long term recovery from this wasteland viral rejection .) Seriously; you are most kind.

Please forgive the short reply but work summons. I could not leave without acknowledging such a generous reply and you made my day before it even started.


Cheers to you. :D
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

jonsjourney
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Post by jonsjourney »

James...believe me when I say that I have learned far more from you than you are likely to gain from what I write. You have been a model of patience, empathy, and understanding around here...these have not always been traits that some here would identify me with! :oops: I have had, historically speaking, a bit more of a provocative demeanor in order to draw out ideas. But some good role models like yourself and folks like the Dalai Lama are having an effect.

But as the character Jules said in Pulp Fiction: "I'm tryin' Ringo...I'm tryin'" :wink:

Cheers to you, as well.
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

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Post by ScottDrums »

James and Jon.

I can't say enough about the wonderful dialogue you both have brought above and beyond the topic. I have really just begun using this forum about a month or so I believe. Every time I have posted an inquiry I have gotten nothing but wonderfully thought out and informative food for thought. I agree this is truly a wonderful gift for those doing some sincere digging.

I have been very intrigued by Joseph Campbell and the very insightful information he has gathered throughout his life. At the same time, I really am one to want to understand things on my own terms. That being said plenty of Campbell's ideas I've found to make a TON of sense and offer a great amount of clarity to my own search.

Jon. Do you know any more specifics of the thought that one is born a Hindu, whereas one chooses to be Buddhist. From my experience I found myself drawn to Buddhist thought originally from reoccurring themes throughout art that I found myself drawn to. After a lot of reading I found myself attending a Zen temple and connecting very naturally. Even the teaching of emptiness I felt WAY prior to hearing and fully understanding from a traveling Tibetan Monk. After more digging I ran across a video clip of Chogyam Trungpa talking to Alan Ginsberg telling him that the only way that Buddhism will be transmitted to the west is through the arts. Mind blowing to me at the time because I have been drawn to Ginsbergs writings 10 years prior and Chogyam Trungpa's writing only as of about a year prior to seeing that comment. And it wasn't until after I found myself connecting with Buddhist thought that I found that many of the writers, poets, and musicians I had been drawn to were indeed Buddhist.

At the same time, as an artist, I was working on a project that I would consider an exercise in mindfulness before I even knew exactly what mindfulness even was. I was digging very directly through sounds and the arts. The point I'm trying to make is that I'm not sure that I ever chose to be Buddhist. On top of that I still find it difficult to even label myself as Buddhist. It feels to me that by labeling my searching it almost kills it. But at the same time I find myself very much drawn to it and have grown from it immensely.

I am well aware that other Buddhists have been through the same thing, most notably Alan Watts. But again, I've found this out after my own digging. I've never been coerced to think a certain way.

I see (in my opinion) as an issue with growing up inside a capitalist society of the real danger of an individual approaching everything as simply their next piece of entertainment, some even take that as far as choosing their religion. As if whichever one appears the most powerful, entertaining, or popular, or suits their lifestyle (spiritual materialism), then they'll just choose and wear that as the new front for their ego and defend it to the end. It's that approach to me that feels like a choice, not a real connection.

Any more insight on the distinction between being born a Hindu and choosing Buddhism that Campbell understood would be welcome. I'm not sure from my experience that I've found that to be true.

Scott

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