That Which is Sacred

What needs do mythology and religion serve in today's world and in ancient times? Here we discuss the relationship between mythology, religion and science from mythological, religious and philosophical viewpoints.

Moderators: Clemsy, Martin_Weyers, Cindy B.

Locked
Roncooper
Associate
Posts: 907
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:51 pm
Location: Eastern Tennessee

Post by Roncooper »

I hope you are right. Do you have a link to what was written on it? What I saw was a panel making fun of old religious beliefs and another saying that the US wasn't Christian.

I do not consider agnosticism a religion because it does not require one to believe in a final truth. To me atheism is a religion because its members are believers. It also links back to the Atheist's "whole" which is the physical universe. The physical universe is the source of all things. It contains all power and knowledge, which do not reside in the whole but in "things."

I consider it to be one of three reasonable religions I have discovered so far. The other two are Neo-Platonism and certain branches of Hinduism.

Of course that's just my opinion.

Ron

CarmelaBear
Associate
Posts: 4087
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:51 pm
Location: The Land of Enchantment

Post by CarmelaBear »

I did not search for more information on the monument.

I'm not sure atheism or agnosticism are religions......not sure how "religion" is defined, but the belief in uncertainty is as firmly held as the belief in "final truth"......both are basic, core beliefs.

Many of my fellow Unitarian Universalists are agnostics and atheists and they hold a set of very firm beliefs, though I doubt they would ever call it a "creed", per se.

Anyhow, most of what is said here is said in the spirit of open statements. One does not have to be an expert or infallible to just join the conversation.

I enjoy all your comments, and I am very grateful for your participation here.

It is so much more interesting when we do not all sound like a choir of angels on high, singing carols in unison.......harps....cherubs.....fog machines......boring.

~

Roncooper
Associate
Posts: 907
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:51 pm
Location: Eastern Tennessee

Post by Roncooper »

I think there is a big difference between believing in nothing beyond physical reality and not knowing. I don't get the term "believing in uncertainty," but will think about it. At first glance it sounds like an oxymoron. Some times it takes me a while to get things.

What really surprises me is that these days calling something a religion is derogatory remark. I know many people who think like that. IMHO we have lost touch with our inner voice.

I think my opinion that Atheism is a religion will be the generally accepted opinion as more people think about.

Ron

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

Ron said:
I think there is a big difference between believing in nothing beyond physical reality and not knowing. I don't get the term "believing in uncertainty," but will think about it. At first glance it sounds like an oxymoron. Some times it takes me a while to get things.

What really surprises me is that these days calling something a religion is derogatory remark. I know many people who think like that. IMHO we have lost touch with our inner voice.
Indeed since religion is such a ( subjective ) perception this is I think part of the dilemma facing modern man; and if I may also suggest there can be a great deal of difference between " religion and spirituality ".

One of the things I like so much about " The Power of Myth " is that it addresses this subject from a number of nuanced directions so as to invite consideration of another " point of view ". For instance when Joseph Campbell talks about his trip to Japan and how that culture approaches the subject; as in: " the processes of nature cannot be evil " And later in the book when he also states that " going east of Suez " to realize that other people in the world have a different psychological position on how they view a deity as not a " personal god " but an agent or vehicle of higher power and something that resides ( within you ).
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

CarmelaBear
Associate
Posts: 4087
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:51 pm
Location: The Land of Enchantment

Post by CarmelaBear »

I think an interesting clue comes with the phrase "organized religion", which implies that one can separate the idea of religion from the institutional framework of formal groups. One can be religious without formally "belonging" or obeying or participating in an organization.

Using myself as an example, I'd say that although I agree with Unitarianism, and think of myself as Unitarian, I am not involved in a church right now. So, I don't think of my beliefs as simply spirituality. I am connected to an organization, if only through belief. It makes a difference, both in terms of what it is to be a "religious" person and how meaningful it is to call any idea a "religious" one. Spirituality seems like a much broader, more inclusive term.

Looking at Campbell, he was not a "religious" man. He held a set of spiritual beliefs, divorced from both eastern and western systems of religious thought.

Unitarians and liberal Christians have a great deal in common with those who are "east of the Suez". Many agnostic Christians are in the closet about their true beliefs, because western religions are authoritarian about dictating the terms and conditions for being eligible for receiving the benefits of membership. Someday, in order to survive modernity, western religions may come to accept diversity of personal beliefs, not only in humanity as a whole, but in their own congregations.

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

I really think this thread is one of the forums finest. Reading Carmela's post sent me back deep in it's beginnings to find a quote of Clemsy's about christian fundamentalist's assertion of their version of " God " being the only God. Alas I could not locate it. But this thread has so much great material I did find one that addresses at least part of what I was getting at concerning " Spirituality " and ( interpreted experience ).

Carmela said:
I think an interesting clue comes with the phrase "organized religion", which implies that one can separate the idea of religion from the institutional framework of formal groups. One can be religious without formally "belonging" or obeying or participating in an organization.


And:
Many agnostic Christians are in the closet about their true beliefs, because western religions are authoritarian about dictating the terms and conditions for being eligible for receiving the benefits of membership. Someday, in order to survive modernity, western religions may come to accept diversity of personal beliefs, not only in humanity as a whole, but in their own congregations.

Clemsy said:
Anyone who's been here for any length of time will know I have my own issues with organized religion, but to dismiss the individual experience, putting yourself in a superior position, is to commit the very 'sin' that makes organized religion an issue.
Note to self here as well. :wink:

Namaste
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

CarmelaBear
Associate
Posts: 4087
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:51 pm
Location: The Land of Enchantment

Post by CarmelaBear »

I enjoy discussing this particular topic and appreciate your support of this thread, James.
:)

On this anniversary of our nation's independence, I am one American who is especially aware of how our most enthusiastic believers and unbelievers are free to practice or ignore religious precepts, as long as a religion is not established by government, (though civil religion is apparently well-established.)

In archery, the term "sin" means "to miss the mark". (That's probably the origin of the term, BTW, which was hijacked by the warrior Emperor Constantine' s patriarchal Christian political bedmates.)

The western tendency is to miss the mark by combining seemingly enlightening revelation with ruthless coercion. This is reflected in religious America's split over everything from the words engraved on the penny to abortion rights.

Clemsy's concern is especially relevant with respect to the problem of the establishment of religious ethics and values that are not actually attributed to anything religious. In the Bible Belt, for instance, the concept of state's rights becomes synonymous with transforming dogma into law. Corporations become lobbyists for religious ideas by disguising their profiteering through state legislation for slave prisons for profit and other fraudulent takeovers.

Health care, education, jobs and other democratic interests are now so tied to minority religious (read: Christian) dogma that it would take an overhaul of the Constitution to fix our crippled, outdated social order.

Campbell understood the loss of a grounding myth, but the nation seems to be blindly carrying the weight of Judeo-Christian dogma like a massive patriarchal yoke around our collective necks. Sometimes I wonder if we are without the benefit of realizing how we enable unhealthy religious oppression and corporate greed.

~

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

I thought the term " Holiday " might be an interesting thought to consider in light the reflective nature of this thread. And being a day set aside for various contemplative or recreational pursuits; depending on what type of classification it falls under; religious, secular; etc.; I think it is interesting how at least some parts of the modern world have come to reinterpret the way they celebrate or observe them. ( Sporting events, concerts, special consumer sales and the like go hand and hand with religious ceremonies, parades, and media broadcasts. :? )

From Wikipedia:
A holiday is a day set aside by custom or by law in which normal activities, especially business or work, are to be suspended or reduced. Generally holidays are intended to allow individuals to celebrate or commemorate something of cultural or religious significance. Holidays may be designated by governments, religious institutions, or other groups or organizations. The degree to which normal activities are reduced by a holiday may depend on local laws, customs, or even personal choices.

The concept of holidays has most often originated as religious observances. The intention of a holiday was typically to allow individuals to tend to religious duties associated with important dates on the calendar. In most modern societies, however, holidays serve as much of a recreational function as anything else.

In many societies there are important distinctions between holidays designated by governments and holidays designated by religious institutions. In many predominantly Christian nations, for example, government-designed holidays may center around Christian holidays though non-Christians may instead observe religious holidays associated with their faith. In some cases, a holiday may only be nominally observed. For example, many Jews in the Americas and Europe treat the relatively minor Jewish holiday of Chanukah as a working holiday, changing very little of their daily routines for this day.
And since July 4th here in the ( US ) is a " National Holiday ":
Sovereign nations and territories observe holidays based on events of significance to their history. For example, Americans celebrate Independence Day, celebrating the signing of the Declaration of Independence in 1776.
I wonder how this aspect of the " sacred " has been impacted and translates in terms of modernization in other cultures? :idea:
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

CarmelaBear
Associate
Posts: 4087
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:51 pm
Location: The Land of Enchantment

Post by CarmelaBear »

From the Talmud:

The words, "Remember the Sabbath day," in Exod. xx. 8, and "Keep the Sabbath day," in Deut. v. 12, were uttered in one breath, as no man's mouth could utter them, and no man's ear could hear.

Shevuoth, col.20, col.2.

~

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

I just came across this marvelous little clip of Joseph Campbell I have never seen before talking about: Buddhism, consciousness, and " The Ferryboat " metaphor.

Enjoy: 8)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tA89VbB0fg0
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

CarmelaBear
Associate
Posts: 4087
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:51 pm
Location: The Land of Enchantment

Post by CarmelaBear »

:)

CarmelaBear
Associate
Posts: 4087
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:51 pm
Location: The Land of Enchantment

Post by CarmelaBear »

Göbekli Tepe

Turkey's Göbekli Tepe is the location of the world's oldest sacred stone monuments.

The complex of great monoliths feature expert human and animal carvings. They were created with advanced engineering skills, craftsmanship and artistry that dates back to the stone age. A nearby settlement, possibly populated by the builders of the large monuments, is 11,000 years old.

Beneath the ground of the first set of monuments, archeologists found more than a dozen more similar structures that date back to 16,000 years ago, thousands of years before it was believed that humans began to use agriculture and create settlements.


Image

CarmelaBear
Associate
Posts: 4087
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:51 pm
Location: The Land of Enchantment

Post by CarmelaBear »

Image

Roncooper
Associate
Posts: 907
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:51 pm
Location: Eastern Tennessee

Post by Roncooper »

The Viet Nam War Memorial
Made sacred by a billion tears
We could call it the weeping wall.

I remember on one of my trips to DC I decided to visit the wall. I made it to about 50 meters away when I was overwhelmed by emotion. I had to set down. My stiff upper lip didn't work. It took me a half hour to get to the wall. My generation's wall.

My brother-in-law went to Viet Nam and was given the silver star. No one knows where he is, or if he is still alive. Last we heard he was in a cabin in the Rocky Mountains. My brother went to Viet Nam. He was wounded 13 times and was given the bronze star. He lost the fight to delayed stress a few years after he returned.

I wrote this poem for him.

The Final Act
(for Larry)

His soul was stained with blood
When he left the plane
His hand so scared it never would
Play his song again

But he was certain he was right
They all had told him so
For countless years his countries' might
Made heroes like him go

And now he's back and where's the band
Where's the waving crowd
Where are the speeches filled with praise
To cleanse and make him proud

Instead the people turn away
Avoid him at all cost
And soon his mind begins to stray
To lands best left uncrossed

For he has slain six men
Blown them straight to Hell
Now he's not certain it was right
Or for his countries' lies he fell

His mom, his dad, the men in charge
Maybe they were wrong
But he's the one who held the gun
Sang the killer's song

And he's the one with wounds
And he's the one who dreams
Over and over those vile events
And he's the one who screams

And we're the ones who play
We get our good night's sleep
For those whose lives are constant rage
We do not even weep

Our best went through that cursed war
And bear the burning scars
Of countless cruel and vile acts
But the final act is ours.

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

( Very moving Ron. I'm so very sorry for your loss. ) What these folks had to bear and deal with one can only imagine and most would not really want to know.

I had a very good friend who had part of his shoulder taken out by a sniper. He told me how screwed up the war was. I stayed up all night with him once when he was having a hard time. I saw him recently and he wanted to let me know he never forgot that and how much he appreciated it. I told him he was my friend and that's what friends do. It seemed like such a small effort compared to what they had to endure. He seemed to have recovered better than most. One wonders how many terrifying and sleepless nights so many vets must have.

When President Reagan came into office he stopped the federal funding for the mental health institutions across the country and many of them shut down turning thousands of patients into the streets; ( many of them vets ). One of those institutions was here where I live and for years I remember seeing these people wandering the streets; homeless and suffering. I remember the political slogan used was: " Washington has a spending problem ". ( Post Traumatic Stress Disorder ) didn't even exist on their radar then.

The suicide rate for soldiers has been very much on the rise up until recently from what I have been able to gather. The military media people say they are getting a handle on it and it is starting to come down. I saw in the news a couple of days ago where the top military commander said we could not take on another war because we did not have the resources to cover it. One wonders if some other less than brilliant politician will start the brass bands playing patriotic recruitment songs again for some other particular political agenda. Millions died in the previous World Wars; Korea was called a police action by some; and over 60,000 soldiers died in Vietnam. But the numbers are much less now for the Gulf and Middle East Conflicts since the military hardware is so sophisticated and they have started using drones while making sure that all the press gets carefully scripted information and monitored access.

All these soldiers suffer and many are never the same once they return. Perhaps if there was much more press and transparency about the human costs of these conflicts there might be less military engagement; but in the meantime the ones returning are going to need a lot of help in coping. Hopefully they will get it.

Thank you for sharing such a poignant and deeply personal memory with us. Truly a meaningful and heartfelt tribute for those who gave " their all "; and for those whose suffering may finally be at peace.
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Locked