That Which is Sacred

What needs do mythology and religion serve in today's world and in ancient times? Here we discuss the relationship between mythology, religion and science from mythological, religious and philosophical viewpoints.

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Nermin
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Post by Nermin »

JamesN wrote:
Now my point is this; as the level of anxiety rises out of the concerns about the various issues affecting people's welfare in this fightening new economic environment; it will breed more fear and hostility. And how it plays out will depend on these people's response in the interplay of this condition.
Tell me, James, why can't people go back to virtue ethics or character ethics and
put out healthful policies instead, in such times of economic troubles?
I was expecting more open-mindedness especially in Europe that most people are
simply glutted with all that money can buy :?:

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Post by JamesN. »

That's an Excellent question Nermin; and one that I believe is on many people's minds.

Trouble is it seems; that many of those same folk have different interptretations of what that means. ( For instance here in the US we have a Constitutional debate on various subjects between the interpretation of individual freedom verses common welfare. A little simplistic perhaps for such a large application but we will go with that for now. ) ( Also I think materialism plays a role in the value system here but that may be best left for another discussion. )

This I think points to a conflict of cross-purposes of ideas taking place with alot of people talking and not as much thoughtful listening addressing the various concerns. Also many of these problems are complex without simple solutions. Real compromise; ( which obviously is what is required in most of these circumstances ); is going to require a Greater Good approach which means giving something up. It is very very apparent that there are certain groups not willing to put that consideration above the self-interests; ( read dogma and ideaology, much less agenda and specific topic ); that they represent. ( I would also suggest this may be very difficult figuring in the importance the Role the right of individual expression; or individualism if you prefer; plays in determining This common or greater good ). ( To me a Huge conundrum to consider.)

Also you must factor in the power of the culturally informed point-of-view aspect which may differ a great deal across the range of subject matter being considered; ( read religious, buisness, secular, etc. ). And to add to the complexity the volatile polarity energizing the anxiety now in place.

And last but not least; the Engineering of perception for support to a constituancy; many of whom are not as informed as would be preferred; instead of working together to find the compromised solutions required to fix the problems. ( I think the election cycle here in the US is about to see an tital wave of superpac influence in the arena this election. ) ( And yes we are absolutely aware of the lobbyists and corporate corrupted influence and religious bias at work poisoning the system. ) ( Sorry everyone; but I couldn't resist a small personal biased rant here. ) :P

Now as far as I know history shows these mixtures and combinations of various crisis that the human condition constantly faces has both constantly changing yet ever the same aspects over a kind of timeless ground that Joe talks about. ( I would offer the classic " I Ching " text in reference to Daoism as an excellent example. ) But considering everything mentioned and the immediacy of the moment it might be unrealistic to expect adjustments out of the comfort zone of most politicians involved.

Metaphorically speaking one of the more profound things I ever heard referring to an abstractional view of this sort of overwhelming calamity like a war or addressing any major crisis was: " War has a way of distinguishing the things that matter ". Now I absolutely do not mean to imply a war or any other ridiculous notion as a way to resolving any of this chaotic mess or that addressing it is out of reach or is unsolvable. And I certainly have no manifesto or magic solution to suggest here. But I would offer here the notion that human beings are not cattle and the concern for their welfare as opposed to corporate or buisness concerns might be a more intelligent approach; although I'm sure more nebulous and difficult to achieve in the global marketplace of human affairs. In conclusion without babbling on and on; I just think people need to step back and to try to attempt some sort of humane understanding here and that this might be a more useful avenue of pursuit at this moment like the common sense sort of approach Nermin in her post and others throughout this website in different posts have suggested. Although I realize that may be an absurd fantasy of my own delusional imagination. :lol: ( At least that's my take on it or point of view. )



Very thoughtful Nermin! 8)
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Nermin
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Post by Nermin »

Now as far as I know history shows these mixtures and combinations of various crisis that the human condition constantly faces has both constantly changing yet ever the same aspects over a kind of timeless ground that Joe talks about. ( I would offer the classic " I Ching " text in reference to Taoism as an excellent example. ) But considering everything mentioned and the immediacy of the moment it might be unrealistic to expect adjustments out of the comfort zone of most politicians involved.
James,
This sounds really interesting. Is-it possible to widen this section a little?
Do-you mean fate or an overall frame of action like hero's journey?

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Post by JamesN. »

Hey Nermin;

On my way to work here; but a quick note before leaving.

No, I was not referring to the notion of Fate.

I see you changed to the other older spelling of the philosophic concept from which the " I Ching " text refers to; Taoism - Daoism; So I assume you have some knowledge. Deep deep subject of which I have tremendous respect for and claim only the most humble grasp of. The " Book of Changes " is often applied as a source of divination by which a set of 64 hexagramic based combination of short and long lines are arranged into separete symbols referring to interpretive definitions of bringing oneself into harmony with the processes or nature of reality; and; applying this understanding into the cultivation of mindfulness towards living in general and particular circumstances of the moment. 3 coins or a group of sticks called Yarrow sticks; are tossed or cast in a given attempt to obtain a reading as it were and then the text is used to interpret the displayed result; as a rushed and overly simplistic definition. This topic is a terrific subject in this particular thread; but alas I am most definately not the fountain of information required for this line of inquiry. I like many in the 1960's and 70's had a copy and used it but a scholar concerning this I am not.

As to the reference to " Timeless Ground " one can see this as a metaphoric symbol like a stage over which life's weather passes and immerses us in a dance with time.

Close as I can get at the moment, before I go. I'm sure there are others who can offer a better critique.

My best to all into the day. :)
Last edited by JamesN. on Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Nermin
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Post by Nermin »

JamesN. wrote: I see you changed to the other older spelling of the philosophic concept from which the " I Ching " text refers to; Taoism - Daoism; So I assume you have some knowledge.
Not at all, James, I don't have any special knowledge.
That was 'Taoism' in my youth and it surprises me to find people
write 'Daoism' nowadays -this should be my outmoded side :P

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Post by JamesN. »

Nermin; Like I said, as I understand it. It is a huge and deep subject. Wiki it if you like. :lol:
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Ercan2121
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Post by Ercan2121 »

I see you changed to the other older spelling of the philosophic concept from which the " I Ching " text refers to; Taoism - Daoism; So I assume you have some knowledge. Deep deep subject of which I have tremendous respect for and claim only the most humble grasp of. The " Book of Changes " is often applied as a source of divination by which a set of 64 hexagramic based combination of short and long lines are arranged into separete symbols referring to interpretive definitions of bringing oneself into harmony with the processes or nature of reality; and; applying this understanding into the cultivation of mindfulness towards living in general and particular circumstances of the moment. 3 coins or a special set of 24 sticks are tossed or cast in a given attempt to obtain a reading as it were and then the text is used to interpret the displayed result; as a rushed and overly simplistic definition. This topic is a terrific subject in this particular thread; but alas I am most definately not the fountain of information required for this line of inquiry. I like many in the 1960's and 70's had a copy and used it but a scholar concerning this I am not.
Very enthralling, do-you make readings, James?
I'm asking this because I think it's good idea to take advice from someone
with some special talent to understand what the coins are saying.
I know a couple of good sites over the web about I Ching and Runes,
yet it's not that easy to clinch what's said or what's suggested at once :?:

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Post by Nermin »

JamesN. wrote:Nermin; Like I said, as I understand it. It is a huge and deep subject. Wiki it if you like. :lol:
Thanks, James :)

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Post by JamesN. »

Ercan it may take me a little while here to answer this one. I don't really do readings but the basics as I experienced them aren't that hard if you just keep it simple and don't try to get too deep here. ( Just have some fun and enjoy it. ) I went and got a copy of the I Ching today. It's been a long time and I need to kind of re-introduce myself. Three pennies and a copy of the book are what I used. I'll try and get back to you to help get you started when I've - dusted out the cobwebs of my memory - as the saying goes. I've already spotted a couple of websites that might be helpful.

Cheers to you both :)
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

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Post by Nermin »

James,
Sometimes we ask questions only to denote how much we're interested
in what someone's saying -as you probably have noted in several topics here.
So, please feel free to take some break when you're busy :)

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Post by Ercan2121 »

Nermin is right, James and very sorry for such awkward
questions of mine. There’s no 'like' button on JCF and here, the topics
can get highly intellectual and tiresome in contrast to Facebook and
other social media. Hope we've made our message clear, my friend,
we do like your company :wink:

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Post by JamesN. »

These exchanges have been a sincere joy and to have had the privilege of sharing with you both has in no way been a bother of any kind. If there are lapses I of course like you and any other associate am more than likely occupied with the life demands of the moment. But in your kindness and consideration is yet another example of why I enjoy sharing these thoughts with you.

I just got finished winding things up so with a little patience let me see if I can proceed a little further from where we left off.

The symbol of the Yin - female and Yang - male form the 2 major starting principles from which everything in the constilating sets of corresponding relationships emanate from represented in the Taoist cosmology or as represented in nature itself. The symbol characters are constructed from 4 possible number combinations of the 6 tosses or casts of the ( 3 American pennies if available ) with each toss representing a specific line. Tossing these coins on a flat surface the combinations are as follows: Tails has a value of 2, Heads has a value of 3 and each toss is added up and valued like so: 2 tails, 1 heads = 7 ---- meaning Yang solid line; 2 Heads, 1 Tails = 8 - - meaning Yin broken line; 3 Tails = 6 -x- meaning Yin moving line; 3 Heads = 9 -o- meaning Yang moving line. First ask your question; then proceed.

Starting from bottom to top cast or toss the coins 6 times to construct your symbol of lines one on top of the other. Here is where the book comes in to look up your cast. The symbol has a top and bottom half and the lines are first read listed as you receive them. After reading the symbol if there are moving lines a new symbol may be received and the number values of those lines are switched 6 to 9 or 9 to 6 and a new symbol is assigned. The reference book will have symbol listings referenced by a chart to identify their location in the book and the organized interpretation; and in addition line by line descriptions which must be applied in specific ways. Identifying symbols will involve connecting the particular top to the particular bottom halves for it's final identification before finding it's location in the text. ( The broken lines are the key to understanding the symbol arrangement and assembly. This is where the reading gets a little more involved. )

Now I'm going to stop here because to go any further without the book; ( or a website that might do a better job than my humble and confusing attempt ) will probably be clear as MUD. :? However it really is easier than I have made it sound. :lol: And some of my feeble efforts may possible help a little.

Carl Jung liked this; and you may as well. Just remember you are looking at something that has roots going back somewhere around 5,000 years as I understand it. The key concept here is cultivate mindfulness in thinking about it's relevance to any interpretative application. Just enjoy the thoughtfulness that it encourages instead of any concrete or literal text definition. ( That is my humble and respectful recommendation. )

www.ichingonline.net/ seems like a good link here or of course you can Wiki it. It seems there are quite a few others as well but I would procede with a little caution just to be safe. ( I myself have no experience with online sites concerning this and have always used the book. ) I hope this is at least a little helpful to get you going. If there are others more informed perhaps you might like to join the fun.

My Very Best. :)
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

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Post by Nermin »

JamesN. wrote: The symbol of the Yin - female and Yang - male form the 2 major starting principles from which everything in the constilating sets of corresponding relationships emanate from represented in the Taoist cosmology or as represented in nature itself. The symbol characters are constructed from 4 possible number combinations of the 6 tosses or casts of the ( 3 American pennies if available ) with each toss representing a specific line. Tossing these coins on a flat surface the combinations are as follows: Tails has a value of 2, Heads has a value of 3 and each toss is added up and valued like so: 2 tails, 1 heads = 7 ---- meaning Yang solid line; 2 Heads, 1 Tails = 8 - - meaning Yin broken line; 3 Tails = 6 -x- meaning Yin moving line; 3 Heads = 9 -o- meaning Yang moving line. First ask your question; then proceed.
James,
I asked my question and that was about understanding I Ching better. The answer
that came is very relevant, this is as follows;
'The Cosmos is moving toward equilibrium, Extremes are being tempered, excess
is beginning to shift toward the empty. Modesty and moderation are the keys'
Thank you so much :)

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Post by Ercan2121 »

www.ichingonline.net/ seems like a good link here or of course you can Wiki it. It seems there are quite a few others as well but I would procede with a little caution just to be safe. ( I myself have no experience with online sites concerning this and have always used the book. ) I hope this is at least a little helpful to get you going. If there are others more informed perhaps you might like to join the fun.
Very sincere thanks, James.
Here again, i acted somewhat selfishly, deeply sorry my friend.
Asking this was maybe no different than asking what is the source
of your wisdom about life. Very grateful i am because i had an answer.
And there's hope for growth so far as we can receive answers.
Thanks again for thinking that i deserve an answer :D

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Post by JamesN. »

My Dear Friends;

If I may very respectfully again caution without sounding overly concerned in the use of this text as an " Oracle of Divination ". It's major influence has been as a philosophical masterpiece of Taoist thought. But it is a truely fascinating work that has captivated the world for a long long time. ( You might like Carl Jung's forward to Richard Wilhelm's translation if you are interested. )

Please humor an aging chap on this if you would. :lol:

And also know it gave me great pleasure to be of any assistance. :D
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

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