Is there such a thing as an absolute value??

What needs do mythology and religion serve in today's world and in ancient times? Here we discuss the relationship between mythology, religion and science from mythological, religious and philosophical viewpoints.

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Do we integrate certain values from transcendent sources?

Yes
4
36%
No
2
18%
We cannot know
5
45%
 
Total votes: 11

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Roncooper wrote:James, Myrtle,

Thank you for all the information. I haven't looked around this site very much. There is so much I have to discover, and so many beautiful ideas to enjoy.

I visited the Opus Archive and saw Campbell's library. It is amazing how driven he was. I think his athletic and competitive background helped. In "The Power of Myth" series, I remember him saying his peak experiences came during competition. I wish I had that energy.

Back to absolute values. For me life has it's physical-survival component that is all about DNA and brains, and the earth, and the sun, and the space between the earth and the sun, but there is another aspect. The one where we manifest examples of absolute values. One day we create something beautiful, do something honorable, or love something, and this beauty, honor, and love are added to who we are.

We are not just our DNA and brains. We are also what we have done and what we experience. I may be just another old man, but I know for certain that my life was driven by beauty as much as it was by DNA.

Another cool post Ron. I really like the way you are able to synthesize these large themes and still keep a sense of balance. ( Perhaps your science background helps. :wink:)
I visited the Opus Archive and saw Campbell's library. It is amazing how driven he was. I think his athletic and competitive background helped. In "The Power of Myth" series, I remember him saying his peak experiences came during competition. I wish I had that energy.


Indeed Joseph Campbell was both an " Olympic Athlete " and a Literary Scholar. ( Quite a combination huh? ) Amazing how one man could accomplish so much to be sure; ( and we are certainly benefiting from that inheritance ).

This I really liked:
We are not just our DNA and brains. We are also what we have done and what we experience. I may be just another old man, but I know for certain that my life was driven by beauty as much as it was by DNA.
I would only add that historically in most cultures with age came wisdom and the elderly were considered the revered " Gatekeepers " for the understanding of life. Their role was highly respected and not considered as a burden. Joe had much to say about this part of the life-stage and it's passage. ( He considered it a time of blooming and " realization "; not a time of incapacity and incompetence. Your post is a nice example of this. )


Cheers :)


A short addendum:
If I may I would like to offer a short note of thanks concerning ( all ) of the various efforts of the Foundation and this website; along with the many other projects that these associates undertake with little funding but with tremendous heart and soul dedication. It is because of their tireless efforts that Joseph Campbell's work not only continues to survive but more forward in the release of new unpublished material. And also the innovative partnering with other organizations to further expand various interactive collaborations so that more people are exposed to this work. These constantly evolving outreach efforts will insure this legacy for future generations and we owe a debt of gratitude to these folks for the gifts that they bring in their behind the scenes contributions without which none of these resources would be possible. ( Without sounding pretentious I just feel offering a little expression of appreciation is appropriate once in awhile for all that they do and how lucky we are to have them. ) 8)
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JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Here is another homepage quote that happens to be one of my favorites. I'm not sure as to whether this falls under an " Absolute Value " per say; but perhaps a ( technique ) to use in the employment of " Aesthetic Arrest " Joe talked about and utilized in the integration of such a value within one's life. I have been looking in Diane Osbon's: " Reflections On the Art of Living; A Joseph Campbell Companion " but not absolutely sure of it's whereabouts. ( Maybe a cogitation or reflection to consider. ) :idea:
Life as an art and art as a game—as action for its own sake, without thought of gain or of loss, praise or blame—is the key, then, to the turning of living itself into a yoga, and art into the means to such a life.


Joseph Campbell
Myths to LIve By
Thoughts anyone?

________________________________________________________

Aha! Just found Aesthetic Arrest in ( Osbon's book ); pages 248-251. - Way too much text to quote but I think concerning this overall connection the essence is: ( Cezanne's: " Art is a harmony parallel to nature " ) 8)

_________________________________________________________


One last point I would like to add that might be something to consider in connection to this theme of an ( absolute value ) is that of the relationship of " Duality ". It seems much of the question concerning holding a position has to start here. If I understand correctly much of Joe's references had to do with the nature of dual and which side you take concerning a decision because what is good for one side is not necessarily favorable for the other. Joseph mentions all in the field of time by nature is dual and so one must pick a side and engage; however the understanding one brings in making a decision to this dilemma presents the question of how to retain the best possible outcome in the horrendous nature of life consuming life of which we all participate. If I recall correctly his answer was: " To participate joyfully in the sorrows of the world ". You cannot change the mess that life is; because by nature it is perfect; ( a perfect mess; and perfection within it's very existence ); you are simply not going to change it. And so by acceptance in saying " yea to it " one changes their psychological position yet still remains within the ( game of life ) or Great Opera; ( but ) in " leaning towards the light " you might say. You cannot change the nature of life but you can choose " to live in joy ". ( Not by ignoring the horror; but by participating with compassion within the field or side one has chosen. )

My apologies with my description for it may be a little rough around the edges and is not meant as a blanket statement to cover everything; but I think you have to include this consideration within the topic; ( at least as far as Joseph Campbell's themes are concerned because he stressed this over and over again. ( He even called " joyful/participation " his " little theme song ".) And " duality " was right at the center of this issue of ( absolutes ) within the field-of-time. As a matter of fact it comes up specifically in the " Power of Myth ". And as far as assigning ( value to absolutes ) he also said: " There is no meaning to life - you bring the meaning to it. Being alive ( is ) the meaning. " So the idea of an " Absolute Value " may need a more critical scrutiny concerning this particular point.

At any rate here is something else to add to the topic I thought might worth noting.

Cheers :)
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Roncooper
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Post by Roncooper »

James,

You have written so much I don't know where to start. I read the pages you indicated from the Campbell Companion. Beautiful stuff.

To this point I have been focusing on goals such as honor, beauty, love, happiness, reason, etc.as absolute values. However you pointed out another category.
Here is another homepage quote that happens to be one of my favorites. I'm not sure as to whether this falls under an " Absolute Value " per say; but perhaps a ( technique ) to use in the employment of " Aesthetic Arrest " Joe talked about and utilized in the integration of such a value within one's life.
You mentioned technique and this got me thinking. Are there absolute values for creating great art? How about "practice?" If we asked artists if practice was necessary and valuable would they say yes? I know this might appear to be a trivial example, but the debate is whether absolute values exist at all.

I don't think there is any question that, as Campbell says, things that exist in the field of time are relative, and are both good and bad. My question is are there no exceptions. Is tyranny ever a good thing. A materialist might say it is good for the tyrant, but is that really an acceptable answer. I may have to accept that there are tyrants and for all I know they may never go away, but that doesn't make it good.

Any thoughts anyone?

On page 251 Campbell equates the experience of Aesthetic Arrest to that of the Hindu and Buddhist experiences of the highest states of consciousness. I have a problem with this. While I would agree that these are both experiences of the "divine." the artistic experience is a divine sensual experience, whereas the awakening experience is that of the divine as self, or "Thou Art That."

In my opinion the sensual world and intuitive world of consciousness are separate dimensions that experience the divine in different ways..

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Post by CarmelaBear »

We experience. That is what we value.

If we are aware of what we value, I absolutely guarantee that it is brain-centered. The toe feels what the brain senses. The brain is active when we are asleep. It regulates breathing and responds directly to changes in the function of the heart, (both literally and figuratively). It is either the source or the bridge to the source of consciousness, depending on the true, (as yet undiscovered), nature of consciousness.

We know being alive.

If the experience of life is good. We have reason to value it.

If we experience being of value to even one other living being, we learn to value our own life.

How do you separate the individual experience from what is regarded as a "value" in the larger, more exotic and esoteric sense of the term?

People who kill and kill and kill and kill....... generally claim to value life.

If the killers are people we hold in high regard, we believe that the "life" they value is something that requires killing to achieve.

One of the most basic concepts in the ideas of Campbell is that life literally feeds on death and killing. Could it be that everything we value only exists through the destruction of the thing we most value? Truth thrives on lies. Try living the truth of love without lying.....I double dog dare you. And so it goes...

Values may be the luxury of those who are in a position to experience and appreciate beauty and truth and liberty and other very nice wonders that kiss the lives of those who enjoy good fortune. Each generation both forgets and remembers the values of the previous ones. When we remember what was once highly valued, we may stand taller for recalling what is otherwise lost. We are buried deeper as we forget what would otherwise be worth keeping.


~

I value the earliest ancient amoeba's experience of movement, and I appreciate how joyfully we all move through space and time.

~

If God does play dice with the universe, then our survivalist brains may be organizing our otherwise chaotic experience by literally creating hierarchies of value to guide our way along a road that leads to the experience of nothing. I know that experience. That's what happened to me before I became aware of being. It was one big old nothing. In fact, I have no recollections of my own. I rely entirely on fossils and photos.

~

Roncooper
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Post by Roncooper »

Carmela,

Wow! Thanks for that. I value your opinion. From what I gather you are taking the position of the brain religion. It is my opinion that the people who believe that the brain is the creator redefine the facts to fit their beliefs.

For example my white blood cells travel around my veins and save my life by figuring out who is friend or foe and attacking the enemy. These cells are alive and conscious even though they don't have brains. Now the brain people will say that they really aren't conscious and say that cells are just little chemical robots, but they have no proof of this, it is dogma.

They don't like the obvious answer because it places limits on the intellect. The intellect may never understand consciousness, so what. It doesn't understand love and so love becomes chemical reactions?

While most values are relative I don't believe that all are. People say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and use this as an argument for relativity. For me , however, the most important part of that statement is the first two words, beauty is. The fact that it has a home is a plus.

I don't remember the exact words, but Einstein defined God as the mystery. This is a reasonable religion. You may chose to follow the brain religion because it is reasonable, but it is not the only reasonable religion. There are several that are not so depressing.

You posted
Values may be the luxury of those who are in a position to experience and appreciate beauty and truth and liberty and other very nice wonders that kiss the lives of those who enjoy good fortune.
My reply to this is simply that I would not wish my life on anyone. One of my motivations is the dream that no one will ever have to go through my dark experiences. Of course I share tragedy with millions and am in no way a martyr or a saint.

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Post by JamesN. »

Hey Ron and Carmela. We've been talking about some pretty grand sweeps with these concepts and absolutely they are some of the most important; but every now and then I go back and revisit some of Joseph Campbell's videos and see them with fresh eyes so to speak. I am in the middle of several things at the moment so I don't want to hold up any of the exploration of these issues because this is a great discussion going on here. I'll try to pop in and spend more time with some of this when I can but meanwhile here are a few youtube clips that seem to cover at least some of the points concerning Joe and ( Absolute Values ) that have been raised.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSEd2mYRMCg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2coRpyJasg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J0Yxhhp6Uk

Cheers :)
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Roncooper
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Post by Roncooper »

James,

Thank you for the links. You hit the bull's-eye as usual.

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Post by Roncooper »

The second video mentions the function of art as a way of experiencing the divine. In my opinion we can experience the divine via all of our dimensions.

It can be through our hearts, our wills, creativity, intellect, or our consciousness, and all of these experiences are of equal value for the individual. All of them can bring the good news, and, (to paraphrase Kabir), all can provide experiences that may last only a few moments, but make you a servant for life.

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Post by JamesN. »

Ron I think much of you are saying squares with many of my thoughts or impressions on this but I might add a couple of things to that if I may.

I just spotted this; again on the homepage quotes sidebar since we are referencing Art:
Shakespeare said that art is a mirror held up to nature. And that's what it is. The nature is your nature, and all of these wonderful poetic images of mythology are referring to something in you. When your mind is simply trapped by the image out there so that you never make the reference to yourself, you have misread the image.


Joseph Campbell
Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth with Bill Moyers
Along with this I just want to mention at some point it may be worth considering a separate thread for " Art " by itself; although I think we are good for now.. The connection overall I think is pretty clear and seems to be okay up to this point; but in relation to the guidelines and respect for Billymack's subject of an " Absolute Value " it could start to drift. ( It's probably as much or more my doing than anyone else; but I'm just saying it's a possible concern to be aware of. ) Of course it's his call; but it's easy sometimes for these themes to wander; and ( Art ) is one that could sure do that. :wink:

( Okay let me see if I can express myself coherently here without going too far off course. ) To me with what we have covered up to this point I think it should be mentioned that the Art Scene in " Paris " had a tremendous breakthrough that occurred from about 1905 - 1930 and Joseph Campbell was there during part of this period. It changed Art forever in the west and had a huge impact on him. ( And this had to do with ( all ) the Arts and led him to James Joyce. ) He mentions this at great length in the " Power of Myth " and how the interest of his course of academic study suddenly shifted when he came back to the states; left school without finishing his thesis; and went up to Woodstock and " retired to the woods " so to speak as he says and read for 5 years during the Depression. Up to this point the relationship between Religion and Art had enjoyed a huge connection; but without oversimplifying things here there was a major metamorphosis that took place within the artistic community during this period; ( especially after World War I ); when the old European World Order began to fall apart; the Ottoman Empire began to crumble and many cultural beliefs and relationships gave way to set the stage for World War II and what we might call the Modern Era. The Artists in the various disciplines within this community reflected much this new awareness. ( There is a tremendous documentary that has been done on this subject called: " Paris - The Luminous Years: The Making of the Modern "; if anyone is interested. ) ( I also might add Carl Jung's influence on psychology began to emerge at one point which had a huge impact on Joe but that came a little later I think. )

What I'm trying to get at is within this huge " sea change " of events that Joseph Campbell and his generation were experiencing he began to see the interconnections between many of the various spiritual cosmologies and cultural belief systems and his interests led him towards eastern cultures and religions to people such as Heinrich Zimmer as his understanding of a larger global or world view evolved and of course his professorship at Sarah Lawrence as he began to write.

As his work and interests expanded and included larger and more comprehensive themes; these ties or interconnections between the Arts and Religions as well as the different world cultures began to reveal themselves to him as well and which brings us to the Sciences and " Absolute Values ". He saw from this lifetime of intense scholarship that the arguments between religion and the sciences had more to do with the misunderstanding of how the relationships were interpreted and understood than the experiences they are trying to render. ( For instance the invisible plane behind the physical plane that exists and supports it; which both science and religion describe in different ways. ) And whether from a comparative; subjective; or relative sense many of these positions were expressing some of the same things. ( His famous quote: " that he saw no conflict between religion and science because the science of 2,000 B.C. needs to catch up to science of 2,000 A. D. " is but one example. ) And that Artists and Scientists were some of the new Heros; ( along with Shamens instead of clerics I would also add ).

At any rate as I have mentioned before this is not a blanket application I am suggesting; but in IMHO what much of these interrelationships seem to be to representing to me. And that any perception of ( Absolute Values ) are interpreted more from this perspective in a objective or relative sense; especially considering the connection to duality; than from a more concretized; personal; or subjective sense. I think that was more of what he was trying to illuminate; ( " the difference between the light bulb and the light; the light itself seen as a source of consciousness and the bulb as a carrier or vehicle of that light " would be one expression of this he has quoted. ) :idea:

But as to whether there is an " Absolute Value " the only thing that I can see that to me comes close or resembles this concept that Joseph Campbell talks about is the quote known as the ( Great Mystery ) that is beyond all categories of thought; that is never to be known or discovered; or what we might call God " that he talks about; again as referenced in the conversations with Bill Moyers in ( Power of Myth ). ( I'm not talking about a " Deity " here either. ) :wink:

At any rate this may not be quite square up precisely with the earlier attempts at a definition; but if I am understanding the point it is probably as close concerning Joe that I can come.



Cheers :)



( Here is a short clip from the documentary I mentioned. I think you can find it on Amazon for about $20.00. )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4ZRu7O9nmg
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Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. »

"...beyond all categories of thought..."

Intuition, feeling, and/or sensation (Jungian), I say, and all wrapped up in a symbol. :)
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by JamesN. »

Cindy B. wrote:"...beyond all categories of thought..."

Intuition, feeling, and/or sensation (Jungian), I say, and all wrapped up in a symbol. :)
Indeed Cindy; in a Jungian sense I think he saw this idea of a deified " God " as a ( projected ) " human " symbol. This is not the same idea about existence as " isness " which he referred to when he stated: " What is the meaning of a flower?; What is the meaning of a flea?; There is no meaning to it, it just ( is ) ". And this interpretation of a " Great Mystery " I think is probably closer to the concept of an " Absolute Value " as far as he understood it; especially concerning a more global or world view. :idea:
Last edited by JamesN. on Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Roncooper
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Post by Roncooper »

Cindy, James,

Thank you for the post. You seem to be writing from the perspective of consciousness and so I will answer in kind.

I know from experience, not symbols, that I am the infinite glorious magnificent, immanent and transcendent whole thing becoming tomorrow, the dynamic super-environment, a manifestation of Brahman, etc. I am the light and the bulb, and the eyes using the light to read.

I realize that the universe is the Whole playing, but this manifestation, me, likes grand finales. I have this dream that everyone will be holding hands and singing "Hey Nonny Nonny," as the world explodes.

Consciousness has a role to play in this dream, as its game is the elimination of unnecessary suffering.

I know at times that I get excited, but I am not hung up about my dream. If there is to be a grand finale, then it will happen with or without me.

A comment about art. In addition to the art from Paris I think Pollock and Riopelle really knew what they were doing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackson_Pollock

http://www.wikipaintings.org/en/jean-paul-riopelle

I want to thank you again for all the beautiful and enlightening information. Campbell was a wonder.

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Post by Roncooper »

I would like to add that I am honored you tried to help me.

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Post by JamesN. »

Roncooper wrote:I would like to add that I am honored you tried to help me.
Ron speaking for myself you are far too kind; and I might add you bring a very special mindfulness and thoughtful consideration to these conversations that truely adds to the discourse.

Your contribution of " Pollard and Riopelle " is spot on by the way; and encouraging for opening up more discussion in this direction. ( Which reminds me after giving this more thought perhaps an " Art and Campbell " thread might be good to separate from this topic in all fairness; and very helpful as a subject in it's own right. I'll go ahead and create one and post it in the Mythos: For the Creative Community forum so look for it shortly and if you and anyone else finds it of interest please jump in. )

Cheers
:)
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JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Although this quote I just got off the homepage references a point covered earlier in discussing of how Joseph Campbell's theme of " participating joyfully in the sorrows of the world " is to be understood; I think it is helpful sometimes to see his thoughts presented in different contexts so as to get a better overall sense of what he was driving at. Although I must admit some quotes I struggle with quite often; ( and this is certainly one of them ); and even while interpreting it's abstract implications; I guess perhaps the matter of implementing it comes down to the perspective or position of " how we understand or perceive things on a more realistic or practical level. " )
Have we heard? Have we understood? '�All life is sorrowful!' The important word here is 'all,'� which cannot be translated to mean 'modern'� life, or (as I have recently heard) 'life under capitalism,' so that if the social order were altered, people then might become happy. Revolution is not what the Buddha taught. His First Noble Truth was that life--all life--�is sorrowful. And his cure, therefore, would have to be able to produce relief, no matter what the social, economic, or geographical circumstances of the invalid.


Joseph Campbell
Myths to LIve By
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