Is there such a thing as an absolute value??

What needs do mythology and religion serve in today's world and in ancient times? Here we discuss the relationship between mythology, religion and science from mythological, religious and philosophical viewpoints.

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Do we integrate certain values from transcendent sources?

Yes
4
36%
No
2
18%
We cannot know
5
45%
 
Total votes: 11

Billymack1949
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Is there such a thing as an absolute value??

Post by Billymack1949 »

If we accept that our values do not come from "God", or at least God as is rendered in the 3 Monotheisms, is there such a thing as an absolute value? For instance, humanists seem to share, and with passion, the value of nurture and care for children especially babies. Harming a newborn, tossing it around, disregarding his or her humanity is a real violation of anyone's values who isn't a psychopath. Where does that value come from? It's just "there", and of course it didn't come from Mt. Siani. Seems to me there's only a couple of possibilities: Our DNA, the collective unconscious, ultra powerful societal mores, "something" transcendent and beyond our mental understanding . . . . there's a genuine physical revulsion at the thought of certain acts being committed, the Sandy Hook shooting. The nation wept in revulsion because our common values were so deeply violated. But as Joe pointed out frequently, on the other side of the world they may be killing and eating disobedient children (as a byproduct of initiation rituals).

Where do we get our absolute values then? Are there some individual, indiginous itribal members who recoil in horror when they experience the murder and subsequent meal of a 13 year old boy by the Elders? Do they feel their most inward sense of values violated? If so, where did they "get that" and why don't the other member of their tribe "have it".
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Fishy Phil
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Post by Fishy Phil »

Hi Billy. Big question here. I kind of see it as two competing principles. The transcendent oneness that myth and religion (and now physics) say underlies everything means its natural to have empathy for other people, animals and even nature. Who could ever say that your feelings towards family, friends and even people you don't know well are not a true and real and beautiful.

But the flipside, and one that is hard to accept, is that ultimately the universe doesn't really care what happens to you or anything else in the world. You're like a cell in the universes body. Do you care that cells are dying in our body all the time? We could get hit by an asteroid next week and for all we know life in the universe is now and forever snuffed out and the universe wouldn't give a damn. There is a brutal indifference with existence that it needs for creativity.

I think both viewpoints are actually true. Its hard to reconcile them though.

CarmelaBear
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Post by CarmelaBear »

I'm glad you're tackling this one, Billy. Thank you for starting this thread. I read the two posts so far and realize my brain is not able to focus on substantive matters at the moment. Still, my intention is to return to this with something that might pass for a cogent reply.

Please hold the fort while I try to straighten out my distracted brain, okay?. The bear has good intentions.

~
Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene

Billymack1949
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Post by Billymack1949 »

CarmelaBear wrote:I'm glad you're tackling this one, Billy. Thank you for starting this thread. I read the two posts so far and realize my brain is not able to focus on substantive matters at the moment. Still, my intention is to return to this with something that might pass for a cogent reply.

Please hold the fort while I try to straighten out my distracted brain, okay?. The bear has good intentions.

~
Love this response! Temporary hibernation is welcome. :D
This is no ordinary universe!

Billymack1949
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Post by Billymack1949 »

Fishy Phil wrote:Hi Billy. Big question here. I kind of see it as two competing principles. The transcendent oneness that myth and religion (and now physics) say underlies everything means its natural to have empathy for other people, animals and even nature. Who could ever say that your feelings towards family, friends and even people you don't know well are not a true and real and beautiful.

But the flipside, and one that is hard to accept, is that ultimately the universe doesn't really care what happens to you or anything else in the world. You're like a cell in the universes body. Do you care that cells are dying in our body all the time? We could get hit by an asteroid next week and for all we know life in the universe is now and forever snuffed out and the universe wouldn't give a damn. There is a brutal indifference with existence that it needs for creativity.

I think both viewpoints are actually true. It's hard to reconcile them though.
I agree, and yes it presents a real paradox. I guess my primary question speaks to the bold above. For instance, animals seem to show care for their young, but no compassion for their prey. Joe used to talk all the time about the horrible thing that life is teaching us is "that it has to live by killing other life. We're constantly waist deep in blood". Now this doesn't seem to bother animals, but it bothers us. So as we evolved, we evolved a conscience that demands a mythology to carry us and put us accord with the demand for killing. As that conscience developed, it made our psyches very different from animals, and this thing you mentioned above becomes a value that is directly experienced. As you said, now, "it's natural to have empathy". So that implies that nature supplied it.

Remember the story of the Shaman who heard the song of nature itself and it was saying "don't be afraid of the universe". Or the Buddha facing monstrous and fearful temptations and thinking "nothing is happening, there is no one here". So some indigenous people seem to not have such a value because they apply their mythology with a call for sacrificing innocent people to their God. To them, the Universe is indeed a fearful and vengeful place and needs propitiation. Is the conscience in this case out of touch with "it's natural to have empathy". Can the universe not reach them with this message? Maybe those people are closed to transcendence . . . . but still, we would be implying that they are closed to an "absolute value".
Last edited by Billymack1949 on Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Fishy Phil
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Post by Fishy Phil »

Well animals are basically working off instinct aren't they. The are really acting in a very programmed way that evolution has designed.

Maybe we have cultivated a kind of global empathy because we are not fighting so much to survive anymore having domesticated animals and cultivated grains and having a degree of security. With the primal tribes you talk of, its like they are more in an unconscious state and very much in touch with the myths and energies that come from there. In a way modern mans power has come from becoming more conscious and being able to manipulate matter. We look at earlier practices you describe as bizarre and superstitious. But in some ways there were right understanding how destructive and brutal the universe is. Do we modern man live in denial of this fact as eat our cling wrapped steak from the supermarket distanced from the brutal slaughter of the abattoir.

Its kind of like we have become too conscious and have forgotten the unconscious (the underworld) that we and all things have come from with all its messiness and chaos. Some of us want to get back in touch with it a bit more even if its a dangerous journey that appears superstitious to others.

I'm still not sure what you mean by "absolute value" though. Do you mean a way of living eg. peacefully?

Billymack1949
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Post by Billymack1949 »

Fishy Phil wrote: Its kind of like we have become too conscious and have forgotten the unconscious (the underworld) that we and all things have come from with all its messiness and chaos. Some of us want to get back in touch with it a bit more even if its a dangerous journey that appears superstitious to others.
Interesting thought. Reminds me of the LSD experiments that Stanislav Grof was reported to have done. Very dangerous and messy and chaotic. But also opened doors that could not otherwise be opened. I'm not sure I agree that the cause is "becoming too conscious". I might put it; not integrating the unconscious into conscious awareness. There probably is no turning back from the level of consciousness we've obtained, no putting the toothpaste back into the tube. Everything now is an issue of the psyche collecting and integrating all of its un-accessed parts. .
Fishy Phil wrote: I'm still not sure what you mean by "absolute value" though. Do you mean a way of living eg. peacefully?
Not quite. The best examples come from religion. For instance, conservative Pro-Life folk claim the sacredness of human life as an "absolute value" that they share with other religious people. Because human life is sacred, abortion is a violation of that value. Where does such a value come from? God. This is the opposite of relativism. Values are relative. Pro-Choice folk claim that women get to have control over their own bodies. This freedom is a competing value with the Pro-Life stance. Only most Pro-Choicers don't claim that a woman's right to choose is a value derived from God. It's more humanistic relativism in my view. So my original question was given a non-literal view of God, accepting a transcendent mystery beyond all concepts and categories, are all values relative? Is compassion or empathy for instance an "absolute value" in the sense that we seem to derive it from nature or the universe itself, but not from the mouth of one deity or another in concrete terms.

Make sense??
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Fishy Phil
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Post by Fishy Phil »

Ok so its bit like Descartes wanting to get down to first principles. He came up with "I think therefore I am" because everything could just be a tricky demon manipulating his senses but what is undeniable was him experiencing something with his mind so that's his base.

We take it back to the oneness that is behind all things that many people believe, but that is ultimately unknowable. So in theory if everything is one we should have absolute empathy for every single bit of matter in the universe. But...there is the Indian religious story of the oneness being bored so it hid itself in separate bits of matter and then deliberately forgot it is all one. The game it is playing is to discover itself as oneness again.

So this way we get these paradoxical values: Oneness but also separateness. Empathy but also selfishness (survival instinct). Chaos versus Order. I don't think it can be reduced to an absolute value eg. Everything is one energy therefore we should love everyone. There is also separateness, individuality in the world. My genes tend d to push me to looking after my family and friends first (my tribe). But I also care about people starving in other countries. Its the tension between the poles where the creative approach to life is for everyone to play out rather than absolute answers.

Billymack1949
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Post by Billymack1949 »

Fishy Phil wrote: We take it back to the oneness that is behind all things that many people believe, but that is ultimately unknowable. So in theory if everything is one we should have absolute empathy for every single bit of matter in the universe. But...there is the Indian religious story of the oneness being bored so it hid itself in separate bits of matter and then deliberately forgot it is all one. The game it is playing is to discover itself as oneness again.
I've heard a version of that origin story and I adore it . . . it fits well I think with so many other philosophies/practices/Mythos . . . . God pours Himself into his creation and begins to build a body suitable for His habitation. Then the evolutionary climb begins back toward consciousness and when humans arrive, they are manifestations of God's consciousness and begin pondering: Where did this come from? Who made it? Why is it here? Why is there something instead of nothing? And we ask each other, but of course, it's just God encountering God, trying to remember who he was. I think sometimes that why we feel like we should help each other.
Fishy Phil wrote: Oneness but also separateness. Empathy but also selfishness (survival instinct). Chaos versus Order. I don't think it can be reduced to an absolute value eg. Everything is one energy therefore we should love everyone.
That's kind of my question . . . why should we love everyone? That would be an absolute value, Why shouldn't I compete with you for resources, or take your wife? Why is compassion the universal response instead of self-preservation at all costs?
This is no ordinary universe!

Billymack1949
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Post by Billymack1949 »

Fishy Phil wrote: We take it back to the oneness that is behind all things that many people believe, but that is ultimately unknowable. So in theory if everything is one we should have absolute empathy for every single bit of matter in the universe. But...there is the Indian religious story of the oneness being bored so it hid itself in separate bits of matter and then deliberately forgot it is all one. The game it is playing is to discover itself as oneness again.
I've heard a version of that origin story and I adore it . . . it fits well I think with so many other philosophies/practices/Mythos . . . . God pours Himself into his creation and begins to build a body suitable for His habitation, the universe itself. Then the evolutionary climb begins back toward consciousness and when humans arrive, they are manifestations of God's consciousness and begin pondering: Where did this come from? Who made it? Why is it here? Why is there something instead of nothing? And we ask each other, but of course, it's just God encountering God, trying to remember who he was. I think sometimes that why we feel like we should help each other. :P
Fishy Phil wrote: Oneness but also separateness. Empathy but also selfishness (survival instinct). Chaos versus Order. I don't think it can be reduced to an absolute value eg. Everything is one energy therefore we should love everyone.
That's kind of my question . . . why should we love everyone? That would be an absolute value, Why shouldn't I compete with you for resources, or take your wife? Why is compassion the universal response instead of self-preservation at all costs?
This is no ordinary universe!

CarmelaBear
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Post by CarmelaBear »

There is absolute experience. We are aware of two things. We know what feels good to us and we know that others feel in ways similar to the way we feel.

If we are lucky enough to have an opportunity to learn to trust others, we may experience the personal development of values. We might learn to care about how others feel and we might want them to experience the things we value.

The condition of fetal alcohol syndrome teaches us that a conscience has a biological foundation and is greatly influenced by primary relationships and early experience.

~
Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene

CarmelaBear
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Post by CarmelaBear »

Self-preservation is a prerequisite for compassion. Dead people can be passive symbols, but only the living have the chance to actually engage in an act of love.

The key is balance. The wealthiest can feel poor and deprived. The poorest can know transcendent value that shames the people who wear masks of power and "value".

Somewhere between the extremes, each person has the chance to do the math.

One planet home. Most members of the dominant species are women and people with dark skin, who earn less because their work is valued less. They are poorly served and represented by massive, pervasive institutions that exclude them at every turn for being less valued as human beings.

Our actual collective conduct as a species endangers life on Earth and drains away much that we value. We assign roles on the basis of geography, gender, ethnicity and family. These are internalized and perpetuated through intrusive institutional means.

Some selves are men who will be crammed into the warrior role and forced to risk death to defend gender roles and oil wells and religions. Women live longer than men, and while the men are alive, their job is to suck all the air out of the room. What men are allowed to do, they do very well, indeed.

If women are permitted the role of mother, they have overpopulated the globe to a point of crisis over resources that creates the pressures underlying the perceived need for nuclear armaments, war to secure natural resources, and an industrial social hierarchy. To reduce crime and violence, we must reduce population by releasing the female from pressure to deliver and raise children.

~

If men were allowed to live as long as women and women could feel free to be individuals with singular value, they would experience self-preservation. You cannot share something you don't have and you don't control. When we own our lives, we are in a position to use that as the basis for empathy and making valuable contributions to the whole.

~
Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene

Billymack1949
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Post by Billymack1949 »

Wow CB . . . that's quite a treatise. I'll have to think about it a while to know where to go next! :shock:
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Fishy Phil
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Post by Fishy Phil »

Billymack1949 wrote:That's kind of my question . . . why should we love everyone? That would be an absolute value, Why shouldn't I compete with you for resources, or take your wife? Why is compassion the universal response instead of self-preservation at all costs?
Well I think that's where the Hippie, New Age and positive thinking movements hit a brick wall. The tried to lock in an absolute value "Love", "One energy", "Positive thinking" to reach some sort of Utopia. They ignore the dark forces of life until they come back at you with avengance. As Jung points out, what you ignore becomes a shadow following you everywhere. That's what I love about Campbells writing. He doesn't shy away from the brutal, destructive, heart breaking side of existence. He says something like "when the world blows hard on you, you need to have your anchor in the depths". You need to see the big picture (transcendent world) to make sense of all the pain (and pleasure)

Have you read Dawkins "The Selfish Gene"?. He makes the case that all altruistic behaviour is actually just genes ensuring their own survival (individuals don't really matter, self replicating genes are the true drivers of evolution). We are controlled by our bodies to fair degree, more than most people admit I think. According to Dawkins it makes evolutionary sense to be nice to people.

Fishy Phil
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Post by Fishy Phil »

CarmelaBear wrote:Self-preservation is a prerequisite for compassion. Dead people can be passive symbols, but only the living have the chance to actually engage in an act of love.

The key is balance. The wealthiest can feel poor and deprived. The poorest can know transcendent value that shames the people who wear masks of power and "value".

Somewhere between the extremes, each person has the chance to do the math.
~
That's well put Carmela. Being alive means your genes and emotions drive you to survive, to get food, a nice place to live, money so your children can get what they need, defend yourself and your patch.. The flip side is to develop and understanding of the bigger picture. I sometimes think Buddhist monks can be too transcendent. They seem to have given up on this world and pretend they are above it.

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