Is there such a thing as an absolute value??

What needs do mythology and religion serve in today's world and in ancient times? Here we discuss the relationship between mythology, religion and science from mythological, religious and philosophical viewpoints.

Moderators: Clemsy, Martin_Weyers, Cindy B.

Locked

Do we integrate certain values from transcendent sources?

Yes
4
36%
No
2
18%
We cannot know
5
45%
 
Total votes: 11

Roncooper
Associate
Posts: 907
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:51 pm
Location: Eastern Tennessee

Post by Roncooper »

Recently I heard a talk by the Dali Llama, who said that it is not possible to eliminate suffering and so the goal should be to eliminate unnecessary suffering.

IMHO a person can eliminate almost all suffering by becoming a Buddhist monk. The great challenge to reduce suffering for everyone else.

I am willing to concede that this may not be possible at all, or that it will take thousands of years, and so the question becomes, do we try?

It took civilized man 10,000 years to learn how to fly. I guess patience is in order.

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

This quote has always been one of my favorites:
What the Holy Grail symbolizes is the highest spiritual fulfillment of a human life. Each life has some kind of high fulfillment, and each has its own gift from the Grail.

Joseph Campbell
A Joseph Campbell Companion: Reflections on the Art of Living
It may or may not answer all the questions about what an " Absolute Value " should be; but I sure like the direction that it points towards.
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

CarmelaBear
Associate
Posts: 4087
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:51 pm
Location: The Land of Enchantment

Post by CarmelaBear »

Roncooper wrote:Recently I heard a talk by the Dali Llama, who said that it is not possible to eliminate suffering and so the goal should be to eliminate unnecessary suffering.

IMHO a person can eliminate almost all suffering by becoming a Buddhist monk. The great challenge to reduce suffering for everyone else.

I am willing to concede that this may not be possible at all, or that it will take thousands of years, and so the question becomes, do we try?

It took civilized man 10,000 years to learn how to fly. I guess patience is in order.
I guess the growth of population indicates that the species as a whole is on a roll, (although too many births creates another set of problems).

~

Roncooper
Associate
Posts: 907
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:51 pm
Location: Eastern Tennessee

Post by Roncooper »

Carmela,

You are right. The world has become the victim of our success. A big question is whether we can change. Can we civilize our savage DNA. Can we evolve into a race that is not only civilized but globalized.

If we can't, life will go on without us. Only humanity and its pets and parasites will suffer.

I hope we change because we do so many good and wonderful things and these things are worth saving.

CarmelaBear
Associate
Posts: 4087
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:51 pm
Location: The Land of Enchantment

Post by CarmelaBear »

Our feelings and beliefs, whether religious or ethical or social, affect our conduct. Our conduct is turning up the heat.....literally......and we suffer. Some, more than others.

A story of slavery won the big movie prize last night. We are slaves now to fossil fuels and tobacco and a culture based on the Old Religions that used the symbols of mother (for nature as the womb of life on our rocky planet), of father (for the infinite cosmic power of the universe), and of son (for the individual capacity for renewal and progress and compassion for one another).

The new religion is secular in tone and purposefully political. It uses the symbol of daughter as metaphor for the innermost foundation of being. It is about our collective responsibility for all that we experience as part of a great whole. It embraces mother nature. It honors the grandeur of the cosmos. It internalizes humanitarian compassion....achieving universal, systemic, fail-safe, holistic health, well-being and happiness for everyone and all that we value, here and wherever we may roam...

......and yes, sister, we can have our dreams at the low, low cost of two bits and a friendly smile....but you have to pick up your phone and call now before all the ice is melted and our hearts turn to stone....

Got religion?

~

Roncooper
Associate
Posts: 907
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:51 pm
Location: Eastern Tennessee

Post by Roncooper »

Carmela,

Normally I can follow your posts, but I am having trouble with this one. If you are saying that the myth that society provides is some sort of capitalistic waste land and that this is a mess, then you are repeating what Campbell said. This is why he said that we need a new mythology.

You also seem to be saying that this wasteland is religion and that this is our only choice. This isn't true. There are many choices. Some of them reasonable.

Of course the argument rests on the definition of religion. If you define religion as something some church gave you to digest like a cold TV dinner then I can see your position.

I accept the common definition of religion as your path to God, or in a more politically correct way, your relationship to the Whole.

If you have some time, I would recommend a little book, "What Religion is," by Swami Vivekananda to get this other perspective.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_ ... ivekananda

He does a very nice job.

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

Roncooper wrote:Carmela,

Normally I can follow your posts, but I am having trouble with this one. If you are saying that the myth that society provides is some sort of capitalistic waste land and that this is a mess, then you are repeating what Campbell said. This is why he said that we need a new mythology.

You also seem to be saying that this wasteland is religion and that this is our only choice. This isn't true. There are many choices. Some of them reasonable.

Of course the argument rests on the definition of religion. If you define religion as something some church gave you to digest like a cold TV dinner then I can see your position.

I accept the common definition of religion as your path to God, or in a more politically correct way, your relationship to the Whole.

If you have some time, I would recommend a little book, "What Religion is," by Swami Vivekananda to get this other perspective.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_ ... ivekananda

He does a very nice job.
Ron I think you have put your finger on some of the more subtle distinctions to be made that are often clouded around much within which these religious debates center; ( especially the function that it should serve and not the ends or purposes to which it is sometimes utilized ). What was it the Joseph Campbell said: " Religion should be a blanket to wrap around and comfort; not a whip to put you in submission. " ( Something to that effect as I recall. ) Nicely pointed out! :idea:
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

CarmelaBear
Associate
Posts: 4087
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:51 pm
Location: The Land of Enchantment

Post by CarmelaBear »

I'm sorry. I have no clue what is being expressed here. I will follow the link...later.

Something tells me that no one is beginning to comprehend my message.

~

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

Carmela; the post I made had more to do with what Ron was expressing about religion's function; although it might be helpful to re-clarify a little bit what you were saying because quite frankly by the last line of the third paragraph up to your summation in the fourth; ( granted I got the sarcasm ); you were starting to lose me and I was getting unsure as well. :?

I'm not disagreeing with your points about your idea of what Ron mentions as the new wasteland religion necessarily or that I am agreeing with your position; ( that is if I am understanding your issues ); but suggesting that stating your distinctions another way might be helpful in this case.

Cheers :)

( I should add however that I think Ron's points about religion in general were spot on. And I particularly liked the part about utilizing a " considered mindfulness " when thinking about another's point of view concerning religion. Speaking for myself; I think that it is very easy to " demonize " and Joe get's into this when he talks about not having to throw away one's religion but to understand it's message metaphorically and to use that as a guide on the individual path . No one is saying that there is not abuse; quite the contrary; but using a more measured approach concerning " assumptions " might be a better idea in this case. I know that I certainly have been guilty of this from time to time in the heat of frustration with the state of the world. But that does not mean your points lack validity either. ) :idea:
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Roncooper
Associate
Posts: 907
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:51 pm
Location: Eastern Tennessee

Post by Roncooper »

James,

Religion should be like a warm blanket. I like that. I would add a pillow to hug for the heart.

Religion is like a warm blanket and a pillow. Sounds right to me.

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

Ron I hope you'll forgive the estimated guess as to the accuracy of the exact quote; but I think that is the sense of it. As I recall he was suggesting that religion should serve as a guide; shelter; tool; navigational device; and most of all a " nurturing " support in finding and realizing " one's spiritual path " as it were. ( I wish I could remember this quote more precisely; but that is as close as I can remember. )

I have had a very interesting illuminating experience lately in rediscovering some older conversations that Joseph Campbell had with Michael Toms that cover many of his themes but in a somewhat different version. For instance you know we all sometimes read several things about a certain subject and assimilate the information and put the material away and then a good deal of time passes; we go back and reread it and it re-informs us in an entirely different way. You can hear certain themes presented from different sources and at different times it's illuminations open up other dimensions of the same subject matter; right? This is what has been happening to me lately as I have been revisiting some of my obstacles pertaining to some of these certain religious issues like the one you just opened up.

And one of the things I think that is so great about this place is that by our thoughtful and considered discourse we can become helpful agents for each other with these insights. ( Clemsy and Cindy for example have both been very helpful in this process for me personally; not only as moderators but as friends. ) But my point here is that I think many of us are trying to uncover some of the reasons; unlock some of the problems; understand some of our issues that we encounter in the discovery of our own lives. We are in the process of our search or seeking of meaning within our own personal journeys and it's mystery.

So often I think we become obstructed by confusion and lack of clarity when we may actually be saying the same things like the questions you just raised and pointed out in your earlier offerings. Someone gives an opinion or someone ventures a certain view and because of concerns incurred by what we bring with us from outside that we are dealing with in our lives; this " voyage of exploration " can sometimes become an exercise in frustration. Someone loses a job; someone experiences loss; someone doesn't understand a certain mythological or theoretical concern and yet through our common cause for understanding in these forums we try to uncover the reasons ( why? ) in our personal or individual quests. ( In other words I guess what I am trying to say is: we all have things we are sorting through; but we are all in this together; right? ) So for me these extra efforts at " clarity " are very helpful and extremely important. And it is one of the things that stand out about these forums from other sites across the web.

At any rate I highly recommend the Michael Toms material: " The Wisdom of Joseph Campbell - In Conversation With Michael Toms " 4 CD set; and " An Open Life - Joseph Campbell In Conversation With Michael Toms " in paperback. I have a made a request to the audio forum for info as to whether they are available through the foundation bookstore; ( I looked but did not see them ); but in the meantime here are the Amazon links:

http://www.amazon.com/Wisdom-Joseph-Cam ... 1401904432

http://www.amazon.com/An-Open-Life-Camp ... 0060972955


Cheers :)
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Roncooper
Associate
Posts: 907
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:51 pm
Location: Eastern Tennessee

Post by Roncooper »

James,

I put the CD on my wish list.

I know what you mean about revisiting talks. I purchased The Power of Myth DVDs several years ago and I would watch them roughly once a year. Each time it was a new experience. I had grown and I got more out of them.

In my opinion this is an argument against the idea that "It is in our DNA," because if I was hard wired to understand Campbell, I should have gotten it the first time.

My favorite book by Campbell, so far, was The Masks of God, Creative Mythology. That book blew my socks off.

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

Roncooper wrote:James,

I put the CD on my wish list.

I know what you mean about revisiting talks. I purchased The Power of Myth DVDs several years ago and I would watch them roughly once a year. Each time it was a new experience. I had grown and I got more out of them.

In my opinion this is an argument against the idea that "It is in our DNA," because if I was hard wired to understand Campbell, I should have gotten it the first time.

My favorite book by Campbell, so far, was The Masks of God, Creative Mythology. That book blew my socks off.
Indeed Ron you bring up a most fascinating and interesting connection with this thread and that is if there is one constant in all of life at every level I think it could be said that " change " would be it. ( Most surely that would be considered an " absolute " as well. ) Your point about growing is well placed. In it's vast manifestations from the biological to the cosmological; from the human to the divine; life constantly evolves.

Joseph Campbell's work; both as an ( expression of ) and a ( vehicle for ) understanding this idea I think reveals these connections in it's deepest and most profound sense. Life, death, growth, and in one aspect as Joe might say metaphorically speaking: " the still or burning point of being-becoming "; all life is constantly changing and evolving. And we live within the horror and wonder of it all. At least to me this is what it seems to say. ( So in one aspect as an " Absolute Value " I think it would apply. )



Cheers :)


Addendum: ( My apologies here but I felt I needed to offer a better effort and rewrite some of this post.)
Last edited by JamesN. on Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Roncooper
Associate
Posts: 907
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:51 pm
Location: Eastern Tennessee

Post by Roncooper »

I remember Campbell saying that mythology can bring you back to that "becoming thing." Which is a fundamental aspect of being alive.

I am a panentheist and so I say that I am the Whole becoming tomorrow. My view is similar to Adviata Hinduism.

I remember reading some writings by Whitehead, a really sharp guy. He had a more Christian version of the becoming thing, he called process theology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_theology

It emphasizes the change aspect.

I found Whitehead inspiring.

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

Hey Ron; during my Addendum rewrite we just crossed posts; ( considering the coincidence of the " becoming thing " perhaps we experienced a synchronistic moment? ) :lol: 8) :idea:

( BTW cool subject link you gave )


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronicity


OK I have to insert another Addendum. If you'll pardon my sense of humor I simply have to include this from the Synchronicity Wikipedia link:

One of Jung's favourite quotes on synchronicity was from Through the Looking-Glass by Lewis Carroll, in which the White Queen says to Alice: "It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards".[11][12]


'The rule is, jam to-morrow and jam yesterday – but never jam to-day.'
'It MUST come sometimes to "jam to-day,"' Alice objected.
'No, it can't,' said the Queen. 'It's jam every OTHER day: to-day isn't any OTHER day, you know.'
'I don't understand you,' said Alice. 'It's dreadfully confusing!'
'That's the effect of living backwards,' the Queen said kindly: 'it always makes one a little giddy at first--'
'Living backwards!' Alice repeated in great astonishment. 'I never heard of such a thing!'
'--but there's one great advantage in it, that one's memory works both ways.'
'I'm sure MINE only works one way,' Alice remarked. 'I can't remember things before they happen.'

'It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards,' the Queen remarked.
:wink:
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Locked