Is there such a thing as an absolute value??

[Billymack1949]

me.

The bit that did was your "don't know" ... you expressed your option as an absolute

1. we cannot know

You could have said:
I cannot know (implying others may know or may be able to know)
I don't know (not excluding what others may know or I may know in the future)

I just saw an interesting irony in your absolute cannot know option.

Have fun.

LOL!!! You got me! This is really revealing something really interesting to me about myself, yes, and ironic! Of course, I was asking for the opinions of others, but in the nature of the question I was fishing for an absolute. Like most of us, I'm trapped in the world of Maya's Duality!

[Billymack1949]

I suspect given the right circumstances each of us could succumb just like the guards at the camps.

The research says most of us, Rom. Not all. No indeed.

“Heroes are those who can somehow resist the power of the situation and act out of noble motives, or behave in ways that do not demean others when they easily can.”
― Philip G. Zimbardo

There were certainly many who did not believe the message of the Nazis, after they found out what they were really up to, but it was too late, and they simply went along silently. Condemning them in their heart, but unable to do anything about it. The same thing happened with slavery and the early abolitionists. Many more would have joined them, knowing in their heart the evil of slavery, but were frozen in complacency or fear.

[Billymack1949]

The Holocaust is not a shade of grey

No it is was a very dark shade not unlike Hiroshima.

"Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone. You are the one who gets burned." - Budda

“It is important to not see one’s oppressors as nonhuman—even in the face of inhumane treatment.” - Dalai Lama

I agree. . . it is necessary to promote a dehumanizing process of one's enemies (like a Myth I guess), in order to send people marching out to kill them, complete with pejorative labels and racial or ethnic slurs. Occasionally the front line fails to believe in the demonization process . . . .have you ever heard this story? It reminds me that we really can be a "culture without horizons". Ironic that this is the time of year exactly when it took place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_truce

[CarmelaBear]

There were certainly many who did not believe the message of the Nazis, after they found out what they were really up to, but it was too late, and they simply went along silently. Condemning them in their heart, but unable to do anything about it. The same thing happened with slavery and the early abolitionists. Many more would have joined them, knowing in their heart the evil of slavery, but were frozen in complacency or fear.

In the United States, powerlessness in the face of horrible oppression is so common that most of us might understand how the Germans found themselves unable to stop the Nazis during the awful war years.

Our business and church "leaders" sell cigarettes, bad food, ignorance, fossil fuels and power over government. What are we doing to fix what they are breaking? I feel stymied.

I find no myths that show me how to make a difference.

~

[Roncooper]

Carmela,

You brought it home so powerfully that I am at a loss for words. All our action movies are about superheroes defeating the bad government, but this is done by all out battle.

No good solution there.


I will need to give it more thought.


Ron

[CarmelaBear]

Hey, Ron. Love to hear your voice, especially when your words are so kind.

The Good Guy v. Bad Guy thing is not much help. As judgmental as we may sound, (in our rush to rev up the engines of courage), we may have to stop and regroup to become effective again.

Solutions that require us to risk everything tend to be rather presumptuous. Surely we can re-establish a rational democracy!

Rhetoric is not cutting it. Talk isn't helping.

Frustrating.

~

[Roncooper]

Here are my thoughts.

I think the relevant myth here is the civilization myth. If we go back 3,000 years we find that civilization is made possible by controlling the will. We developed a civilization based on laws to control the powerful, and it works when we honor the law.

People in positions of power should set the standard. They should not only follow the law, but also follow a code of honor.

Unfortunately, our culture uses capitalism as a standard. This is a very low standard where playing dirty is acceptable.

I think the white male neo-con movement came from an attempt to find a code of honor, but the only code available was the Old Testament, Christian code and so the outcome was not good.

The will doesn't think. It follows orders and the rules when possible. We need an eternal code that is not cultural but universal for those with power. I have imagined a meeting where our best warriors generate this code, without regard to profit. I think it would be easy.

If I had a battle cry it would be "Not Good Enough." We need politicians who honor the people and the earth.

If someone tells me that we must damage the environment to maintain our lifestyle, then I would reply that all activities that damage the environment should be non-profit. No one should profit from destroying the earth.

"Not Good Enough."


Ron

[CarmelaBear]

There is a developing science now, which is called the "social neuroscience of empathy".

MIT Press has published books on the subject.

http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/series/so ... uroscience

The New York Times weighed in.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/13/magaz ... ted=1&_r=1

Just as some societies have achieved 100% literacy rates by effectively teaching everyone to read, it is possible to teach empathy and compassion.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the ... be-trained

The human brain can overcome many things, and barbarism is among them.

Consistent with their ideals, religious institutions are putting their backs and shoulders into this issue.

http://www.pbs.org/thebuddha/blog/2010/ ... science-a/

http://www.empathy.ws/References/Conferences.htm

http://catholicexchange.com/neuroscience-and-god

~

[CarmelaBear]

Here are my thoughts.

...If I had a battle cry it would be "Not Good Enough." We need politicians who honor the people and the earth.

If someone tells me that we must damage the environment to maintain our lifestyle, then I would reply that all activities that damage the environment should be non-profit. No one should profit from destroying the earth.

"Not Good Enough."

Ron

Oh, Ron.....

the best teachers, managers, engineers and coaches know how to structure and inspire compassion without going to battle with pitchforks and cudgels.

I, for one, would love to channel my outrage over injustice into a political career, and I find no takers. It would be easier for me to marry a prince than to be elected by good people.

After books and courses and experience, my somewhat wide-ranging study of collective behavior has brought me to the conclusion that our American social systems are torn between competing forces. Much to my chagrine, our beloved ship of state is being steered by madmen and their hapless victims. For a genuinely sane and powerful human to take a seat among them might be regarded as suicidal.

~

[Roncooper]

Carmela,

I was thinking that "Not Good Enough" was a good topic for a bumper sticker, not a war cry.

I have some thoughts about your post, and the references, about empathy.

I will address the real issue at the end, but I need to explain where I am coming from first.

I see the human being as a multidimensional creature and from this perspective, this is how I interpret your post.

It touches on four of our dimensions, the intellect, consciousness, love, and the will. Let me explain.

The post starts with the intellect trying to understand empathy and compassion which are actually goals of consciousness. The references start with "The brain is the source" intellectual theory and then rightfully moves to Buddhism.

In the third article we find that meditation changes the brain, which weakens the first article. The article about torturing animals shows the incredible range of human actions, which further weakens the first article. I think it is well established that empathy and compassion are taught by meditation and mindfulness. Of course some people may be born with them.

The last article is a Christian statement defending that lifestyle. In my opinion Christianity emphasizes two of the dimensions, the will in the Old Testament and the heart in the New Testament, whereas Buddhism is focused on consciousness. It is no wonder that they do not agree.

So now back to the issue, which is the control of the will, or how to stop people in positions of power from abusing animals, each other, and the Earth.

The solution provided by the articles is to introduce the path of consciousness to people in power, Have them meditate and learn compassion. In my opinion this will not work. Unenlightened powerful, competitive individuals are only interested in that which makes them stronger.

I can think of two examples where meditation practices were used by highly competitive individuals. The first case is that of the Samari learning to be better soldiers from Zen Masters, and the second is more recent.

Phil Jackson introduced meditation and mindfulness to professional basketball.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Jackson

In both of these occasions the tools of Buddhism were used to improve the performance of the competitors, not make them compassionate.

In my opinion the way the will can be controlled has been defined already. It is emphasized in the Old Testament and also present in the various warrior codes. Control comes from following a code of honor. The person in power must honor the animal, the people, and the Earth. This is the language of the will.


That is my opinion. Any thoughts anyone? I cannot grow without comments.

Ron

[JamesN.]

Ron:

Any thoughts anyone? I cannot grow without comments.

Hey everyone; I saw this on the homepage as I was logging in:

The recognition of cultural cycles is the recognition that there is in the history of a culture a beginning, a middle, & an end ... That is the pattern for all organic forms. Recognizing cultural cycles means one sees cultures as an organism & cultural history as an organic history. We are going through the cycle and have to say "Yes" to it.


Joseph Campbell

Mythic Worlds, Modern Words



Here is something that seems to connect this idea within this discussion:

Roncooper wrote:
I would add protecting the weak from tyranny, being honest, being fair, etc. The fact that there are cultures that don't follow these does not condemn them. It points out the weakness of the culture.

As an animal I must accept that I am a parasite that lives off other living things. From my personal experience, if someone told me this was hell, I wouldn't argue.

I totally agree. I don't want to condemn other cultures, because their values AND my values are relative to each of us. My judgment is irrelevant. That's why Jesus said "there is only one judge, and that is God". Yet when trying to find a "value" that someone was promoting by bringing on the Holocaust it is just a bit too much for me. Then I switch positions and think, there is an absolute evil. Rounding up, starving and ultimately gassing men, women and children because of their ethnicity is evil at it's core and not relative. . . . . but if I judge that, then I can judge any act, just with a lesser degree of condemnation. This presents a dilemma!

From several things I have come across this week this short clip of the ( Bill Nye - " Creationist " Debate ) seems to be a good example of absolutes in conflict within our present timeframe at the moment:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWl9qB8a0u4



Finding what Joe might have referred to as a " middle position ": ( Wu-Wei ? ); with regards to the forces that play out within these conflicts or confines seems to me to be the dilemma we all face as regards to ( participating ) or engaging in the lives we live; regardless of the interplay unfolding in front of us at any given moment. As the Buddhist might say: ( the illusion of life in which we are also a part ). I liked how Joseph Campbell framed some of this understanding when he stated: " How to live a human lifetime under any circumstances ". ( This seems to be the main challenge. ) And although this might not address the immediate concerns of any culture in the present tense; in a more expanded or " timeless " view referring to Joe's statement combined with the topic it might be a good thing to bear in mind; whether political, spiritual, or otherwise.


Addendum: I have moved the Bill Nye clip form a previous post to this spot since it seems to me; ( if I understand this topic correctly ); a much better fit.

[Roncooper]

James,

A point of order. I cannot take credit for the entire third quote, which you listed. The first two paragraphs are mine, but the remainder came from Billymack, if my memory serves.

I think Carmela and I are being much more grandiose. You are presenting ideas to help us cope with the world, and we are trying to change it.

I appreciate your comments. I have debated the western view of progress against the eastern view of cycles for a long time and finally came down on the side of cycles.

A comment about Billymack's statement about not judging. If you remember the multidimensional idea from the last post, then I would interpret this teaching from Jesus in the following way.

Jesus was teaching the path to God through love. One of the goals of this path is to experience unconditional love, which by its definition does not allow any judgments. Love everything, even your enemies and you will find the heaven of unconditional love.

This isn't something I can do, but I try.

Last, a comment about the Bill Nye debate. Each dimension has a world view, which it defends. The way out is to honor and help the others, no matter which one you follow.

Clearly the science in the bible is archaic, and given our modern perspective almost comical. However, it is just as silly for scientists to say that this is just chemical reactions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf42IP__ ... GFUKsv1epk

Ron

[JamesN.]

Hey Ron. Your considerations are thoughtfully presented so I would just like to add that I hope mine were not taken as in any way judgmental of your previous discussion. They were basically offered ( as a compliment to and not as a criticism of ) what I had interpreted as your train of thought since that was what you had requested.

Any thoughts anyone? I cannot grow without comments.

That said if I may I would offer a couple of thoughts concerning my references both to Joseph Campbell's quote and the Bill Nye link.

I take your point on the Eastern and Western positions concerning ( spirituality ); but I differ on the role or aspect that ( religion ) plays within these parameters and I believe that Joe did as well. As I remember on several occasions he states " It makes a mess of the world ". If I understand what he was saying correctly this view was that one accepts the world as it is and that " It is a mess; it has always been a mess; and our job is to straighten out our own lives - don't judge ". ( However ) I don't believe he was saying one does not engage and try to be a vehicle for something higher.

To participate joyfully in the sorrows of the world I think means; yes; one takes a position and " leans toward the light " so to speak. As you stated: " Love your enemies " can be a very difficult thing to achieve in today's contentious environment but I think it is the sense of compassion and connection as human beings that we all must share is the point to be considered he was getting at.

Religion on the other hand; especially the hardcore brand; ( whether it be dharma, Jewish Orthodox or Conservative Christian Scripture; Islamic fundamentalist Sharia law ); or any other concretized form that imprisons human beings I think is at the root of much of the turmoil and conflict across the planet. ( Especially the kind that says my God is the " Only " God. ) This is not spiritually; but domination. Anything that would have a child strap on a bomb to blowup innocent people and be foot-soldier for their deity to gain entrance to heaven is not the same as the " love your enemy ".

Of course I am certainly not implying this or any of these or any other aspects is what you are saying; but only trying to point out that within this " Mess " we all live in to deny science is not only foolish but can be a dangerous assumption as well; certainly concerning the environment to name one. How one determines to navigate and choose to deal with these conundrums is obviously up to the individual. But in regards to the certain facets within these issues you were illustrating I was basically offering some thoughts; not trying to subvert the discussion. ( My apologies if seemed the case. )

BTW Ron that was an exquisite musical link you offered. I'm curious as to why you chose this.

Cheers

[Cindy B.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf42IP__ ... GFUKsv1epk

Beautiful...

And James, West meets East: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakm%C3%A9

[JamesN.]

Thank you Cindy; very helpful and simply enchanting!

Of course I have heard this before but never had the background.

For anyone interested here are the lyrics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower_Duet