Afterlife

What needs do mythology and religion serve in today's world and in ancient times? Here we discuss the relationship between mythology, religion and science from mythological, religious and philosophical viewpoints.

Moderators: Clemsy, Martin_Weyers, Cindy B.

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Clemsy
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Post by Clemsy »

However, if you're not at least looking in the direction of the seventh chakra, the thousand petaled crowning lotus of non-duality; if you're not striving to higher thought and existence by at least focusing on that not-quite attainable “smokey” horizon, then you must necessarily be training your attention on the opposite, lower forms of thought and existence of reproduction, hunger, and power (i.e. the material concerns of the temporal, literal, non-imaginative world).
I'm not so sure about that JR, if it's a look forward or look backward situation, though you may be correct. It is said that things either grow or decay, nothing stays the same. My doubt is if this applies to things spiritual. If I reside at the level of the heart, isn't that who I am, as in that troublesome verb, 'to be'? I guess the question is, does the Stillpoint (Axis Mundi) only exist at the top chakra, or is there such a place for each level from the heart on up?
You can fall in love with your car for example and have no patience for other people on the road. You can fall in love with money and do anything to gain it. You can fall in love with food and become a glutton. You can have a great passion for lovemaking, and yet be nothing more than a nymphomaniac.
Love. Hmmm. Down below I'd use 'lust', 'infatuation' or even 'addiction'. My, I remember a young lady when I was younger and very foolish who's mere proximity turned my knees to water and wiped every coherent thought out of my brain. Love, it wasn't. In the way was what it was. Purely biological. No stillpoint down thataways, no siree.

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JR
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Post by JR »

Again, I think we're talking about the temporal/nirvanic or dualistic/non-dualistic distinction. A still point can only really be spiritual if it is <i>in</i>clusive of its relationship to the surrounding points. If it is <i>ex</i>clusive, or static, it is what the Mahayana would call "the abiding place" or in other words, a distraction.

As for lust, infatuation, and addiction; I see these as products, though they are lower forms, of passion, which is an <i>ex</i>clusively descriptive quality <i>of</i> love, whereas compassion is an inclusively descriptive quality. You mention that these things are "purely biological", but in terms of temporality, it is impossible to distinguish biology from spirituality. In temporal existence, even the spirit is biological. Only non-duality is wholly transcendent, and in that respect, I believe there is no love, passionate or otherwise (but who wants to live like that?!).

It's basically <a href="http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/q ... inning.jsp" target="blank"><font size="4"><b>Plank's theorem</b></font></a>, things change (even in physical reality) depending on how you look at them; nothing can be accurately measured, because the act of measuring changes the thing being measured.

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: JR on 2003-06-23 16:09 ]</font>

Clemsy
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Post by Clemsy »

JR,
Your perspective is interesting. I'll need to mull it over some, but I suspect we'll end up at the same place from somewhat different semantic directions. However;
A still point can only really be spiritual if it is inclusive of its relationship to the surrounding points.
... I can readily acknowledge. The universe, and all it contains, whirls around that point. I've always considered the crucifixion seen a splendid illustration.

So it isn't so much that one must maintain a gaze at the smoke on the horizon. One must hold the transcendant on the one hand and the base on the other in perfect balance. I would say this is a place of nonduality, and perhaps Love becomes a metaphor for that state, with special emphasis on the capitol 'L'. Perhaps this is the message here?:Image

Clemsy

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Clemsy on 2003-06-23 21:44 ]</font>

butch
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Post by butch »

Thank you, Martin for:
"The only mystery is inside of you. I think both are meaning exactly the same. Between two thoughts I am exactly there where I was before birth and where I will be always, independent both from the limitations and the possibilities of time and space".

Wouldn’t it be great if your consciousness (what Susie means by consciousness) ended when you die and does not survive in any way after the death of the body and actually is where it was before you were conceived --- nowhere. That would focus me on the tick of time. Plus, I would get the satisfaction of knowing that all those rotten scumbags like Hitler are truly dead – and their consciousness’ with them.


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Post by Martin_Weyers »

Butch, I was talking not about personal, but impersonal consciousness. In her original post, Susie was asking if we think that consciousness survives in any way after the death of the body.

If you are able to regard men like Hitler as personifications of a cosmic energy of destruction or as personifications of a force of nature - encapsulated and degenerated power of might -, you can fight against them without begrudging to them their little piece of cake of eternity.

The point is, that the eternal aspect of consciousness is independent from personal consciousness, and also independent from ethical questions. In death we are all the same, as we are in eternity: Hitler and Mother Theresa, all the same.

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Martin on 2003-06-27 06:37 ]</font>

Molly J
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Post by Molly J »

Electricity is a clue, I think. When modern day ghostbusters want to find out if a place is "haunted" they always check out the electrical surges. Could our true selves, spirits or whatever, dwell within our bodies electrical component? In many religions the creator is the originator of "light" and is even described as being light. Light...electricity...I know I'm going somewhere with this.

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Post by Martin_Weyers »

Molly, the late Campbell believed, that where's energy, there's consciousness. (You can find accordant comments in Power of Myth as well as in The Campbell Companion.) He was not talking about energy as a metaphor but about physical energy. Maybe the devil's advocat would have blamed him for concretizing a metaphor. :wink:
Works of art are indeed always products of having been in danger, of having gone to the very end in an experience, to where man can go no further. -- Rainer Maria Rilke

Susie
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Post by Susie »

As I posted earlier:
I think of our body as a "radio" broadcasting the "station" of our soul or body electric. There are different frequencies being transmitted and different levels of radio quality. That is why some people do just not jive right with others. There "signals" are just too far off. If something happens to the radio-the signal is not gone- it just cannot project through that radio anymore.
What do you think of that Molly J? :smile:


...with the heart and mind united in a single, perfect sphere

butch
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Post by butch »


Yes Martin. Very good. I think consciousness does not survive in any way after the death of the body. Wouldn’t that be stupendous? The tick, tick, tick of time would be all your consciousness would have until your time runs out. All ones moments would be that much more profound.

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Post by Susie »

I disagree.
...with the heart and mind united in a single, perfect sphere

Martin_Weyers
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Post by Martin_Weyers »

Butch, you can learn from Susie's disagreement, that people think different about it. It might depend on people's mindset. Some have to learn to transcend death, other's have to swamp it out to be able to enjoy the moment.
Works of art are indeed always products of having been in danger, of having gone to the very end in an experience, to where man can go no further. -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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Post by Martin_Weyers »

Susie, your radio metaphor is not equal, but also not unrelated to the idea of the brain as a transformer (not a generator) of consciousness. I like the metaphor, though I'm no dualist concerning the mind and matter question. According to my point of view, there's music without radios, but there's no personal consciousness without the brain. The brain transforms the sound into music.
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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Martin on 2003-06-30 15:50 ]</font>

Susie
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Post by Susie »

hmmm Martin, that is interesting. You believe there is no consciousness without something physical to "manifest" it or to "tune it in"?
...with the heart and mind united in a single, perfect sphere

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Post by Martin_Weyers »

No, I believe there's only consciousness or spirit, but "undifferentiated" as Campbell called it. Our psyche (=personal consciousness) is a manifestation of that timeless spirit. I feel a strong need not to separate things. So we see a soul here and a body there, we feel our mind and touch what we think is out of matter, but it's all the same spirit, only perceived in different ways.

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Martin on 2003-06-30 17:25 ]</font>

Susie
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Post by Susie »

it is spirit-but in another form and that does not negate the reality of it. The densest form that spirit can be is what our physical universe and our bodies are made of imo. But our soul, that which sparks the dense form of our body is much lighter and working at a much higher vibration.

Just to clarify something, I don't believe that when I die, I will float around as myself thinking the same thoughts I did before I died. Sometimes, I think others believe that about me.

I think there is a universal consciousness that is a real thing and that sparks each living being and only withdraws at the death of that physical being. Not out of this universe or out of the measure of the cycle of this universe-but out of our human limited awareness
...with the heart and mind united in a single, perfect sphere

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