Lecture I.1.3 - Symbolism and the Individual

This forum is for focused discussions on The Collected Lectures of Joseph Campbell. Each lecture has its own dedicated conversation.

Moderators: Clemsy, Martin_Weyers, Cindy B.

Locked
jonsjourney
Associate
Posts: 3191
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:24 pm
Location: Earth

Post by jonsjourney »

Some people solve that problem by becoming fundamentalists either of science or religion. I assume, for most readers this is no option. How can we reconcile those two values: The ideal of esteeming every single human being on one hand, and the notion of being at the mercy of a merciless god (or mysterious universe) on the other hand? Many people seek salvation in Eastern traditions. However, it’s important to find our own way, without giving up our own tradition and identity, because …


"[…] every single individual is imperfect. And […] it is precisely in his imperfections that he is charming, that he is wonderful, that he is of value. All of the Buddhas on the other hand, are alike. When you see in a temple in India, and in particularly the Jain temples where the Illuminated Ones are shown in a row, they are all exactly identical. They are perfect human beings, they are absolutely cold—they aren’t human at all."

Quoted from: Lecture I.1.3 - Symbolism and the Individual


Is it an option to become “imperfect Buddhas”?
And so we can now back to the question which started it all. As Biggie pointed out, Joe talks about Christ realizing that he had to exist within the confines of his gross matter, while contemplating the subtle matter.

Many Christians have told me that Christ was/is perfect. In fact, a Catholic friend of mine often says:

"Well....nobody is perfect...and the one guy who was got hung on a cross for it"

Is the idea of perfection like altruism? A concept which does not exist in reality?
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

BiggieDe
Associate
Posts: 185
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:00 am

Post by BiggieDe »

Hi jonsjourney.

It could be that the abstract quality "Perfection" is the price abstract Perfection pays when it enters the level of space/time (existence) here on earth. Abstract "Perfection" is the price subtle matter pays when it becomes gross. The concept of abstract "Perfection" goes from existing in heaven, or the void, or the reality we call ALL THAT IS BEYOND OUR UNDERSTANDING, to existing in the form of its mutated material guise here on earth. "Perfection" decides to go from being One-and-only-One huge spiritual concept of "Perfection," to suddenly being trillions and trillions of separate little material concepts of "Perfection" that make up the earth and the universe, i.e. material forms, living and non-living, moveable and non-moveable, growing and fading away.

To make it more confusing, "Perfection" retains its essence of being "perfect" on this material plain, by making each one of the trillions of forms of material "Perfection" it is a part of, "perfect" in their own way. It does this by making each one be uniquely distinct and different.
Is the idea of perfection like altruism? A concept which does not exist in reality? - jonsjourney
So, "Perfection" exists in our reality here on earth, just in an infinite number of MORE DIFFERENT WAYS than we might imagine??? Whew! That's my best shot for now.

jonsjourney
Associate
Posts: 3191
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:24 pm
Location: Earth

Post by jonsjourney »

I tend to think that we humans have invented some words and concepts which do not exist in reality, or whatever lies behind "reality".

Many concepts in math fit this notion. The mathematical definition of "line" is often something along the lines of "an object which is straight, infinitely long and infinitely thin"...or I have heard it defined as a "widthless length".
An equilateral triangle has 3 equal sides, but we could never go deep enough to assure that each side was of the exact same length.

Yet we can use and apply these concepts in our daily lives. They have applied value in their physical imperfection.

I guess the message I get is that we must be careful in trying to perfect symbols when the flawed 'reality' works just as good....which was Joe's point when speaking about Christ identifying with his existence as gross matter.
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

BiggieDe
Associate
Posts: 185
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:00 am

Post by BiggieDe »

I guess the message I get is that we must be careful in trying to perfect symbols when the flawed 'reality' works just as good.... - jonsjourney
That's great writing/reading from jonsjourney. I've written down the line "They have applied value in their physical imperfection" on a slip of paper and put it in my back pocket with my to-do list. That's a great line and I'm going to think about it for awhile.

Yep, so many people run around perfecting symbols. Sometimes they don't even know that what they're perfecting are symbols. But perfecting along they go, none the less. Like there could EVER be ultimate perfection here on earth. What did Joseph Campbell quote? I think it was, "Everything that is transitory is but a reference. And the reference is to no thing." Now that quote contains both concepts of gross and subtle in it. All perfect things that are gross matter are in reference to the perfect subtle matter. And the subtle matter, i.e. the mind stuff, is always changing, like the shimmering ripples on the surface of a lake after the wind blows upon it. So, the gross must change constantly as well.

You and I stand on firmer ground by realizing that things exist for which there are no perfect words.

jonsjourney
Associate
Posts: 3191
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:24 pm
Location: Earth

Post by jonsjourney »

You and I stand on firmer ground by realizing that things exist for which there are no perfect words.-BD
Indeed! :D
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

Neoplato
Associate
Posts: 3907
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:02 pm
Location: Virginia
Contact:

Post by Neoplato »

You and I stand on firmer ground by realizing that things exist for which there are no perfect words.
Hence the need for ontology and understanding the concept behind the word. For example. by the word "perfect" I think we really mean "the removal of as many impurities as possible".

Obviously "language" is far from "perfect". :wink:
Last edited by Neoplato on Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

BiggieDe
Associate
Posts: 185
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:00 am

Post by BiggieDe »

Take the word "philosophical" for example. That concept is just teeming with "impure" language. By that I mean it's teeming with words that different people define slightly differently or understand in different ways. So, understanding a philosophical statement is usually a continuous retreat back to the question, "What do you mean by that word or this word?, etc." Take "ontology" for example. I think of that word as meaning the study of what is "real," or how we perceive "reality." It just goes on and on and on like that. Defining, defining!

I post comments complaining about people who go around perfecting, perfecting all the time.
Yep, so many people run around perfecting symbols. Sometimes they don't even know that what they're perfecting are symbols. But perfecting along they go, none the less. Like there could EVER be ultimate perfection here on earth.
. . . and then I dive in and start perfecting myself.

It sure would be simpler, and a whole lot easier, if I kept looking for similarities like Joseph Campbell suggests, rather than differences. And discount the particular words involved and instead emphasize their references in my own mind.

Easy in theory, difficult in practice. Subtle and gross.
Last edited by BiggieDe on Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

BiggieDe
Associate
Posts: 185
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:00 am

Post by BiggieDe »

Easy in theory, difficult in practice. - Biggie
Difficult, AND NECESSARY, in practice Biggie, because the highway system of language contains far more options than one way streets. In fact most of the possibilities contained in language corridors are two-way, and sometimes, more-ways.

. . . Yep, more-ways!
No ways
Ways!

It's always fun to quote oneself.
Last edited by BiggieDe on Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

bodhibliss
Working Associate
Posts: 1659
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2003 5:00 am

Post by bodhibliss »

I have trouble with "perfect" and "perfection" - not exactly sure what they mean ... or rather, the meaning seems to shift depending on who is doing the talking.

That's why I'm drawn to this take on the subject:
The world is perfect. It's a mess. It has always been a mess. We are not going to change it. Our job is to straighten out our own lives.

- Joseph Campbell, Reflections on the Art of Living (aka The Joseph Campbell Companion - the perfect bathroom book)

Clemsy
Working Associate
Posts: 10645
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2002 6:00 am
Location: The forest... somewhere north of Albany
Contact:

Post by Clemsy »

...things exist for which there are no perfect words.
Therefore metaphor? Are there perfect metaphors? For one, perhaps, but not for another, methinks.

Imperfection leaves lots of elbow room... metaphorically speaking. 8)
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

jonsjourney
Associate
Posts: 3191
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:24 pm
Location: Earth

Post by jonsjourney »

"What do you mean by that word or this word?, etc." -BD
Yepper. Like Bodhi posted somewhere here very recently, the word myth is often confused on this site because it has two widely accepted meanings. For these forums, myth means metaphorical references (I am whittling it down for the sake of economy), whereas many people use the word myth to mean something that is false. Obviously, there is a HUGE difference!
Are there perfect metaphors? For one, perhaps, but not for another, methinks.-Clemsy
Well said, however, I wonder if that individual perfect metaphor eventually fails the individual when a circumstance comes about which demands questioning the perfection of the metaphor?

Sheesh...does that sound like a philosopher's trap or what?? :twisted:
That's why I'm drawn to this take on the subject:

"The world is perfect. It's a mess. It has always been a mess. We are not going to change it. Our job is to straighten out our own lives."
- Joseph Campbell, Reflections on the Art of Living (aka The Joseph Campbell Companion - the perfect bathroom book)-BB
Exactly.

I am going to have to pick this book up, it is one that I do not have and I often wish for something of Joe's that I can read very quickly when I do not have the brain cells available for the depth of most of his stuff!
Obviously "language" is far from "perfect" -Neo
We really should try to stop agreeing so much. :wink:
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

jufa
Associate
Posts: 629
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:07 am

Post by jufa »

Perfection and agreement are partial to the one who makes such statement concerning without considering the trial and errors others have gone through. "jufa"
Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - jufa
http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com

Neoplato
Associate
Posts: 3907
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:02 pm
Location: Virginia
Contact:

Post by Neoplato »

JJ Wrote:
We really should try to stop agreeing so much.
I'm convinced we're long lost cousins. We think alike, we're both musicians, our favorite band is "Rush", and we both played Dungeons & Dragons. Not to mention we both arrived at this site at almost the same time. Synchronicity?
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

BiggieDe
Associate
Posts: 185
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:00 am

Post by BiggieDe »

synchronistically sympathetic?

BiggieDe
Associate
Posts: 185
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:00 am

Post by BiggieDe »

Thanks Bodhibliss for this quote.
The world is perfect. It's a mess. It has always been a mess. We are not going to change it. Our job is to straighten out our own lives.

- Joseph Campbell, Reflections on the Art of Living (aka The Joseph Campbell Companion - the perfect bathroom book)
Great reminder. Great bottom line. I've been using it, thinking about it a lot, the past couple of days. Thanks again.

Locked