Lecture I.1.3 - Symbolism and the Individual

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jufa
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Post by jufa »

Quote:
It is -and will forever be as long as our human race exists- the old, everlasting perennial mythology, in its "subjective sense" poetically renewed in terms neither of a remembered past nor of a projected future, but of now: addressed that is to say, not to the flattery of "peoples"but to the waking individuals in the knowledge of themselves, not simply as egos fighting for a place on the surface of this beautiful planet, but equally as centers of Mind at Large-each in his own way at one with all, and with no horizons.- Joseph Campbell.
How would Campbell know this to be true? Campbell is not a part of the human race.

And can't you speak for yourself?
Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - jufa
http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com

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Post by Clemsy »

jufa wrote:Clemsy, my post was in response to your following post:

For some reason, I'm reminded of a scene in a Pratchett novel. A guy says to Death, "They say before death a persons life passes before theIr eyes."

Death replies, "YES. THAT'S PRECISELY WHAT HAPPENS." (He always speaks in caps.)
Where is the symbolism and individualism within it?
Wow. All that just to respond to a free association? BTW, Jufa, I do agree with your catechism for the most part, but rather than just talk about The Grandness of it All If We'd Just Realize How Grand It All Really Is, we bat around somewhat smaller ideas in lower case letters.

Besides, Jufa, there is absolutely nothing wrong with Eating, Drinking and Being Merry. One needn't have to consider our Existence in-of-around and through Gross Matter as necessarily a bad thing because Here We Are and there is Nothing More Important than Being right Here and experiencing It to the fullest extent possible. Some, or many, are taken with the idea that One Must Evolve Beyond this Gross Matter and consider it a Tomb of the Spirit to be Risen above whereas others, such as I, see no difference between Matter and Spirit and Death is simply a release from Linear Time, a metaphorical transition from Now to NOW as Eternity which is so far beyond the power of Words and Thought and Mind that I may as well finally put a Period on this run-on sentence.

So I will enjoy that glass of Wine and Experience the Pain, Fear, Joy, Ease, Anger, Excitement, Love, Hate, Exhaustion, Exhilaration, Sex (!), Conversation, Sunsets, Wakings, Sleepings, Poems, Songs, Stars, Catastrophes and Tragedies that All go along with Being Human because I truly Believe with all my Heart that Being Human is a Fine Thing to Be.

See? I have a catechism to. But you can't have it. It's mine.

You can borrow it if you wish.

As for the Symbolism and Individualism in my free associative post, well... Of course Death is the Symbol being a Personification birthed by the human tendency to personify all things abstract.

Like one's Personal God. He's a Personified Abstract.

So in this context, Death can also be a symbol for God, being the Personified Abstract that accompanies the One who has Passed the Threshold beyond into Eternity.

Cool?

Now, the Individualism comes in with the Individual Death is talking to. Of course Life passes before us before death. That's what's happening right Now and if you talked the old Boy up a bit about it, He'd probably insist that while Life is passing before you (a visual image, it is also in you,behind you, above and beneath you), and every friggin' day along this linear track brings us one day closer to the NOW I mentioned above, You'd Damn Well Better Pay Attention because Being Here is Just Too Cool To Miss so Be the Absolute Best You You can Be.

Howzat.

Clemsy, also just having some fun. :lol:

PS: I can't stop editing this post! Help!
PPS: I did it again! That's five edits! ...Gotta get me some Xanex.
PPPS: That's six. I may not get to sleep tonight.
PPPPS: Seven.
PPPPPS: Eight.
Last edited by Clemsy on Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:21 am, edited 6 times in total.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

jufa
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Post by jufa »

This quote to me is what the concept of subtle/gross matter is all about. People get used up and thrown away on this earth by all sorts of efforts that are materially-based. It's horrific, really! That's what JC is talking about when he talks about gross matter. That's what the level of gross matter is all about. But, the same experience of life here on Earth contains an aspect of subtle matter which can ultimately overcome the gross. Campbell uses the story of Jesus to illustrate "subtle matter." Campbell's story was the Devil tempting Jesus to throw himself off a building and God will bear him up, etc. (one of his three temptations of Christ.) Ultimately, Christ knew while he was on earth he was still "gross" and couldn't throw himself off the building and live. Now, that's an important thing to keep in mind and never forget. We all have that side of ourselves, the gross, and need to make allowances for it. BUT!!!, we also have the "subtle" as well.
I comprehend this to be a aspect of man's theorizing, but in quoting Jesus, one has to remember Jesus statement:
"for this cause came I into the world.":
The Cause. Jesus did nothing for mankind but leave a diagram that showed how men could walk out of this world and:
the concept of subtle/gross matter
with their body intact, should they come out of the vanity of eat, drink, and be merry beliefs. Man's beliefs are always based in the humanism of appearance, which are founded in aloneness and fear. Alone, because man realize no matter what he have acquired or accumulated in this world and placed his faith in; that regardless of the choices he has made; and all the discernment of his acknowledgements, he can never leave out of his self and enter into another's egg, nor can anyone else enter into his egg of life. All man's development has come about because of his human misunderstanding of this truth -man walk this earth alone- but he is fed and nourished by walking to and fro upon the ground of the earth of those whom he touch, and touch him. Those who touch him present to him all that they are, and all that mankind is is ignorant, moreso than wise, for a man knows nothing but his prejudical acceptance of that which has allows him to become attached too.
Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - jufa
http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com

BiggieDe
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Post by BiggieDe »

Hi jufa!
How would Campbell know this to be true? Campbell is not a part of the human race.
Hmmm, this quote is producing a definitional gap for me. I'm guessing most of us reading this thread are experiencing the same want of information from you, jufa. You'll just have to do more, expand the detail or expound a little more, in order to keep your readership happy. I personally, can't see myself continuing to read "diffi" postings. Many people do, I suppose, embrace "diffi" postings. And those people are the ones, I suppose, who go off and join the "diffi" cult.

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Post by Clemsy »

Okay, BG. Now that is funny. That's really funny.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

jufa
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Post by jufa »

Clemsy, I see you like mentality of the lynching people for how they believe also, as some others on this forum. Can't a person just come here and express their beliefs without being attacked?
Wow. All that just to respond to a free association?
Gang attack means freedom here, is that what you are saying?
Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - jufa
http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com

Clemsy
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Post by Clemsy »

Attack? Jufa, I just shared my stuff with you. How is that an attack? May be wrapped in some crinkly wrapping paper, but that post pretty much sums up Life, the Universe and Everything According to Clemsy. You're not being attacked. We may be playing with you... you know, we have talked about this before. Be more chatty, less preachy kind of thing?

As for Free Association... the post you referred to states:
For some reason, I'm reminded of a scene in a Pratchett novel....
It was a free association. Not even sure it fit... but thought I'd put it in anyway because free associations are often cool and have something to say.

Cheers,
Clemsy

PS: Besides, have you read my blog? I'm really into a humor thing lately, so I do appreciate the opportunity to exercise it. No offense meant, Jufa, but there is a point in there somewhere I think.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

BiggieDe
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Post by BiggieDe »

Wow, a fire storm and to think it can all start with one match.

My very good friend the other day reminded me how much he had to do to get that egg fertilized in the first place.

I might just add here, in the midst of these molotov cocktails being hurled to and fro, that we need to remember that life is about "AND" and not "OR." Unfortunately too often in my experience, I find life contains all sorts of "bad" that goes along with the '"good." As Joseph Campbell would say, "That's just the way it is." So, yes, we agree or we don't agree but we include it all in the soup just to enhance the flavoring.

My point is simply that when I discern that a person is not worth of my time, I just forget him/her. It's not that I agree or disagree with what's being proposed. Rather it's how simply and clearly what is being proposed is being proposed that matters to me. If I can't figure out what is being suggested or if the suggestions to my mind are simply too outrageous, I just delete that source from my future reading. It takes quite a bit of doing to get back on my reading list, I might add. So, I'm just saying, to a comment like:
How would Campbell know this to be true? Campbell is not a part of the human race. - jufa
There's just not enough there and that's selfish writing. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. Fool me a bunch of times and eventually I'll quit subscribing.

I truly believe I can police my own thinking and still remain open-minded. . . . Enough.

jufa
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Post by jufa »

Clemsy, I am the attacker here, haven't that dawn upon you as of yet? Once I could come here and dialogue with persons like Aireal, Tat Tvam Asi, who understood the abstract dialogue I presented because they presented like abstractness. It is no more to be found here.

I come here and read J.C. and a few others whom have a clear vision pertaining to their living. It is some very good reads here from those whom have their own visions, and are not followers, but seekers which will lead them to that door knob which whill open the upper room of their Being.

Then there are the intellects who have no vision but the vision of others, and so, when I intervene into their conversation, I playfully attack their lack of understanding of the metaphor of the mystery which is unknown. And off we go. Then I say what I came to say, then go back to my reading which a hearty laugh in my belly.
You clemsy, I like to think you for sharing your stuff with me, you have my respect as you always did. The others in this dialogue also have my respect, and I don't care what kind of opinion they have of me, or whether or not they indulge in any dialogue with me from this point on.

Look for me on the horizon. Peace out!

p.s. Don't you just love it when you see I have posted? Automatically you know the conversation is going to become a battle ground of excitement don't you?
Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - jufa
http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com

BiggieDe
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Post by BiggieDe »

Hi jufa!

The first time I read one of your Posts, jufa, I noticed and was intrigued by the quote at the bottom:
Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - Jufa
My thought about it was, "That's the approach I take when people on the street ever start to get me down." When I receive feedback from another person that I'm too inward or too outward, or, we're just not seeing eye to eye, I do exactly what the jufa quote suggests. I stop giving power to anything some other person believes is their source of strength."

The brief, yet sparkling, jufa/Clemsy exchange tonight comes right out of the main stream of that jufa quote. The music never stops, you know. It's only a series of bands, each needing to set up, to briefly play for everyone, before they pack up and move on to the next show.

Here's what I think.

For jufa, maybe it's a confusion of "patience" with "compassion." Patience can't be employed in a situation involving another person over time when there's no shared attempt to change behavior in certain ways. What's needed when implacable positions vie, is compassion.

For Clemsy, maybe it's the difficult position of policing a website involving hundreds of writers and countless readers in a way that the intensity of the language stays lower rather than higher. Granted, he's charged with emphasizing HIS sense of "Higher Order" in Conversations.

Personally, the other day I got ticketed by some cop for going 29 in a 30-mph zone that at the time had temporarily become a 15-mph Elementary School zone. I never saw the flashing lights. The kids weren't even out of school at the time and NO ONE WAS EVEN AROUND THE INTERSECTION AT THAT MOMENT EXCEPT THE CROSSING GUARD WHO WAS SITTING DOWN WAVING AT ME WITH A SMILE!!!! Some unmarked policeman with a radar gun got me.

So, policing community activity is fraught with all sorts of egoic peril when we tend to ignore the CONSTANT use of restraint, apply common sense abilities, and compassionately police ourselves toward the center first.

If only we could all be happy with that, all the time. Sigh.

This posting is just a reminder that it IS possible for two great artists to unify their efforts and produce magic.

That's the way it is. . . . So, we play the blues.

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Post by Clemsy »

Don't you just love it when you see I have posted? Automatically you know the conversation is going to become a battle ground of excitement don't you?
Not quite excitement, Jufa. I am pleased when you take the time to compose a focused post that engages others on an equal footing. You have done so, so I know you can do that. However, what you said was a response to my Pratchett post was not one of those. Indeed, it was one of your larger font sermons (that's really a bit like shouting in all caps) that didn't directly address me or that post, so I really didn't know who it was addressing, if anyone in particular at all. It's a didactic monologue along your usual theme.
Clemsy, I am the attacker here, haven't that dawn upon you as of yet?...

Then there are the intellects who have no vision but the vision of others, and so, when I intervene into their conversation, I playfully attack their lack of understanding of the metaphor of the mystery which is unknown.
Of course I realize that and that's where we have a problem. You can assume other's ignorance or enlightenment all you want, Jufa, but as the Forum Guidelines say, these are conversations, not conversions. Jufa, we have banned very few people here, but the one thing all those who have been banned have in common is that they believed themselves wiser than everyone else and as a result, above the Guidelines designed to keep everyone on a level playing field.

There is a certain pride and arrogance in believing it's your job to wake others up. It's one thing to engage folks like Tat and Aireal in particular topics where this 'abstractness' you enjoy can be batted about. It really is a particular style that does not resonate with everyone as it does come off as didactic and a distraction, especially when such a post is not well composed but formatted in such a way to get attention, and plopped into an active discussion without addressing anyone.
he's charged with emphasizing HIS sense of "Higher Order" in Conversations.
Not HIS but OURS, Biggie. I may be the only visible working associate, but there is an invisible moderator forum that has accumulated 90 topics and over 5000 posts. We don't always agree but we do always come to consensus and there is more to any given situation than meets the eye.

When it comes to a 'Higher Order Conversation' the first criteria is a level playing field of equals.

How about we get back to our regularly scheduled programming?

Cheers,
Clemsy
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

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Post by jonsjourney »

I wonder how oreo's taste whilst dunked in a nice Pinot Noir? :D
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

BiggieDe
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Post by BiggieDe »

Lecture I.1.3 - Symbolism and the Individual


Thanks Clemsy.

I had to go back and find out what it was that got me into this thread to begin with? I remember now, it was the three JC lectures. I read the transcripts. Joseph Campbell is such a great writer when it comes to the mystery of life. It was the energizing effect from reading JC that got me over here in "Conversations" land.
there is an invisible moderator forum that has accumulated 90 topics and over 5000 posts. We don't always agree but we do always come to consensus and there is more to any given situation than meets the eye.
I would kind of like to know how you police this blog, Clemsy? You're certainly the hardest working cop on the beat, that I know of here, anyway. :) I know I got into trouble one time for my "driven drivel" and then "driven drivel drives the doggerel" comments. I remember the commentary about them at the time was there was something more to my situation than met the eye (or words to that effect?) I was just putting two and two together after having read quite a bit of a particular author. I felt it was obvious, if you read enough of that author's postings, that what was motivating the author's writing was all sorts of facts from the author's personal past. Horrific stuff that weighed down the conversation so that you really couldn't have one.

So Clemsy, you channel your responses through some consensus mechanism before you post them?


P.S. It's interesting to me how important pairs of opposites always are. In this case, for example, the idea of "equals" is enforced by "unequals."
When it comes to a 'Higher Order Conversation' the first criteria is a level playing field of equals.

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Post by Clemsy »

So Clemsy, you channel your responses through some consensus mechanism before you post them?
Only in terms of moderation.
I know I got into trouble one time for my "driven drivel" and then "driven drivel drives the doggerel" comments.
Did you get into trouble? I don't recall it that way. I was curious as to your response in the thread in question, but really no more than that. It wasn't an intervention or a moderation.

Here's the issue: I like participating. In threads in which I participate, if issues come up, I call in Martin and/or Stephen to take a look and we chat about it.

Which of my posts are as moderator in this thread? The last one to a degree because it addresses a specific issue Jufa raised. There is some background to this that is of no moment here.

Really... there isn't much of an issue in this moment, although I have directed Bodhi's and Martin's attention in this direction primarily because:
Clemsy, I am the attacker here... when I intervene into their conversation, I playfully attack their lack of understanding of the metaphor of the mystery which is unknown.
Now that gets our attention.

Just cause i'm around doesn't mean I'm policing anything. Actually, when I have some time I'm going to raise this 'Higher Order Conversation' thing in another thread.
Amazing how we are so civil to one another here. It's great. We're more enlightened than most places I've visited. The only thing we really know about each other here is each other's work, i.e. the writing.
Do you know who wrote that? You did, and I couldn't agree more.

Let's get this one back on the rails!

Cheers,
Clemsy
Last edited by Clemsy on Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

BiggieDe
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Post by BiggieDe »

Thanks Clemsy.
Let's get this one back on the rails!
I thought that's what we've been doing, you know, railing! Ho, ho! I'm such a card sometimes. And, you know what they say about the cards we're dealt? We've all got to lay 'em down for them to be worth a . . . darn.

Just doing my part to keep the place civil. You know, enlightened intervention.

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