Lecture I.1.3 - Symbolism and the Individual

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bodhibliss
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Post by bodhibliss »

Hey There, BiggieDe and JJ, et. al.

That one brief passage certainly cleared up so much for me when I first came across it - along with another place where J.C. has a sit down in India with guru (Sri Krishna Menon - aka Atmananda), and asks him, "If all is Brahman, how can we say no to Life, even in all its brutality?"

... to which Atmananda replies, "For you and me, we say yea to it all."

Campbell describes the depth of this conversation in detail in Baksheesh & Brahman, his journal from his trip to India, 1954 - 1955, and paraphrases it much as I just did in the book edited by Diane Osbon mentioned above.

After this brief half hour exchange several of Menon's disciples bumped into Campbell at a coffee shop later in the day and let him know that Menon had been "very happy" after their conversation, and declared to his disciples that Campbell was on the brink of full illumination (which he wasn't in the habit of proclaiming about just anyone).

Campbell too enjoyed the exchange. Even though Krishna Menon's doctor had just ordered him to rest and not teach for six months (he was over 70 at the time), the disciples shared that Atmananda was willing to spend five days teaching Campbell one-on-one, feeling that was all that was needed to for Campbell to reach full enlightenment, a' la the Buddha.

Joe politely declined, preferring to follow his own path - but he retained positive feelings for Sri Krishna Menon, whose metaphysical understanding - along with that of Sri Aurobindo, Sri Ramakrishna, and Joe's old friend Krishnamurti - seemed to come the closest of all the countless gurus in India to Campbell's own understanding at the time.

Say yea to it all, to the perfection in imperfection ...

Works for me!

Namaste,
bodhibliss

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Post by jonsjourney »

Thanks BB! What a great story!!! :D You made my weekend...and it was already good!

I can never understand why some on here criticize those of us who look at Joseph Campbell as one of the most important men of the Twentieth Century. But the reason why those folks take such tones with those of us, who are guilty of shamelessly loving Joe's work, is beautifully illustrated in that story. I mean, to say "no thanks"...wow. That is confidence in your own path.

What a terrific example of both aspects of what makes these forums, and reading Joe's work so important. We all have to start on a path. While the path is our own, that path has been walked by everyone before us; and all who will come after. There is no issue, IMHO, with walking next to a great thinker for a time, while strolling along our path enjoying the scenery and shedding a tear at its holy terrors.

And so this what makes Joe so very important. He did so much of the heavy lifting in terms of allowing the rest of us to examine the broader concepts without "in depth" knowledge of every citation, or subtlety. If we want it, it is there for us to pursue, but the real magic happens when something like Power of Myth touches a lost and pessimistic 20-year old who is trying to find commonality in life's great story. That young man sees a path, perhaps some grass growing upon it because so many of us would rather not know, but it is a path to bliss.

Maybe it is because so much of what we are speaking about here addresses paths to the ultimate knowledge, or a total casting off of conditioned "not-seeing"...or
Maybe it is too big a topic category for casual conversation that causes us to become defensive about our life philosophies...I do not know. I fail to see how identifying with words of wisdom can be a bad thing as long as we don't start using the image to separate us from ourselves.

It is because of posts such as BodhiBliss's that keeps me convinced that I will one day step off the path myself, but I still have a lot to learn in this life, so I am ok with having Joseph Campbell as a facilitator on my journey.

:!:
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

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Post by Clemsy »

Heh, heh. I used that anecdote tonight in answer to a question on personal vs. impersonal god. Worked like a charm.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

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Post by Neoplato »

And so this what makes Joe so very important. He did so much of the heavy lifting in terms of allowing the rest of us to examine the broader concepts without "in depth" knowledge of every citation, or subtlety.
I'm very glad that Joe did all the ground work. I was heading down a similar path as J.C. but luckily I discovered him. Finding this "shortcut" was kind of like getting an "advance to Go" card in Monopoly.
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

Painted Owl
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Post by Painted Owl »

Hi all!

Is not the real lesson to be learned from these comparisons of mythologies that they are defining principles, defining ideas to something which is entirely plastic, one's own identity. Who is to say that one is better than the other, one needs to think deeply when one is considering the mold one wishes to jump into. This is one idea Joesph Campbell has taught me that one's identity is itself a myth, if you are not pleased with it, at least in theory, you can change it. Myths whether traditional cultural myths, or personal myths that have formed in a hodge podge manner are the alchemy of identity, what has been done on an unconscious level might today be done consciously and with intent to form. There certainly are negative aspects to being lost to a collective, but, there are also negative aspect to the sanctity of the individual, The world is a much larger context than it was for the individual of the past, there is some truth in the idea that context defines, but there is some truth also in the fact that who we are, forms our social context/s. Myths the alchemy of identity, identity the alchemy of a society, as biological/psychological extension?
"Those whom know the most must mourn the deepest orr the fatal truth, the tree of knowledge is not that of life." Goethe

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Post by BiggieDe »

Hi Painted Owl, . . . I'm absorbing your entry. It's put me into a thinking mode. Very dangerous, in my case, to think too much. I can't claim any ultimate answers regarding the pros and cons of mythologies and their impact on the identities of individuals and societies. I suppose philosophies and values are built into mythologies for better or worse. 'Better' and 'worse' are both relative terms, of course. Anyway, your entry got me to thinking how Joseph Campbell always emphasized the experience of being alive as what myths point to. Ultimately the mythologies themselves are words that only point toward some experience we all share by being alive. Study the myths, but then go out and have the experience.

One other point, I agree with your quote:
something which is entirely plastic, one's own identity.
While we are conditioned by our experiences of family and community, we certainly can modify and/or entirely change our behavior patterns. They are just habits, after all. We can pick and choose the "conditionings" we desire. Myths can help us do this. But, ultimately it's our experiences that will lead us to a level of "knowing." At that level, the conditionings, while individuated, are transferrable, i.e. can be shared, because we recognize the unity of all of life. I think this sort of wisdom, "enlightenment" if you will, is acquired individually and then shared ultimately with everyone and everything else.

Pretty vague, I know, but it's still early in the day. Plenty of time to edit my content into contentment.

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Post by Painted Owl »

“I'm absorbing your entry. It's put me into a thinking mode. Very dangerous, in my case, to think too much. I can't claim any ultimate answers regarding the pros and cons of mythologies and their impact on the identities of individuals and societies. I suppose philosophies and values are built into mythologies for better or worse. 'Better' and 'worse' are both relative terms, of course. Anyway, your entry got me to thinking how Joseph Campbell always emphasized the experience of being alive as what myths point to. Ultimately the mythologies themselves are words that only point toward some experience we all share by being alive. Study the myths, but then go out and have the experience.” BiggieDe quote



BiggieDe,

Yes I believe myself that experience is the Holy Grail, but ideas are the stuff of which the emotions work upon; you can read something in the form of an idea, a principle, a philosophy and sometimes know how you feel emotionally about them. The sum of our experiences is you might say who we are, now for most people that has not been a conscious creation. The association of ideas and how we feel about them determines the quality of our on going experiences. One can interrupt the process at the point of the ideas, at the emotive point or, the point of action, the physical aspect. What is it that lives and dies but an extended experience as what you are. All these aspects play a part in melding together a myth of identity. When Joseph Campbell pointed out that what people are really looking for is a sense of the rapture of being alive, that rapture depends upon the relationship you have with the world, it is an uncluttered mind I believe. Perhaps it was once natural to experience this rapture, but I believe today in our complex world we need a conscious intent to reach a condition where we can again experience this.


“One other point, I agree with your quote:

“Something which is entirely plastic, one's own identity. Painted Owl [/quote]

“While we are conditioned by our experiences of family and community, we certainly can modify and/or entirely change our behaviour patterns. They are just habits, after all. We can pick and choose the "conditionings" we desire. Myths can help us do this. But, ultimately it's our experiences that will lead us to a level of "knowing." At that level, the conditionings, while individuated, are transferable, i.e. can be shared, because we recognize the unity of all of life. I think this sort of wisdom, "enlightenment" if you will, is acquired individually and then shared ultimately with everyone and everything else.


Pretty vague, I know, but it's still early in the day. Plenty of time to edit my content into contentment. BiggieDe, quote


Yes we are conditioned by our experiences of family and community and as we experience we have thoughts about these experiences. We then have emotions about the thoughts we’ve had about our experiences, it is a witch’s brew. If you cannot change the context which is tending to define you, you need to take creative charge and alter your thoughts about your experience and/or alter your emotional feelings about the thoughts of your experiences. I see myths as tools for restructuring one’s psyche, identity itself can never be complete, can never be more than a gaseous cloud formation of associated ideas. As Schopenhauer said when the eyes close in death, a world ceases to be.

It is a dreamy moving not quite thing, only the illusion is the grasp of the ring. Painted Owl
"Those whom know the most must mourn the deepest orr the fatal truth, the tree of knowledge is not that of life." Goethe

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Post by Neoplato »

Hi Painted Owl.
Myths the alchemy of identity, identity the alchemy of a society, as biological/psychological extension?
I liked the way you expressed this. I guess this would imply “Universe the alchemy of life”? :D
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

Painted Owl
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Post by Painted Owl »

Neoplato wrote:Hi Painted Owl.
Myths the alchemy of identity, identity the alchemy of a society, as biological/psychological extension?
I liked the way you expressed this. I guess this would imply “Universe the alchemy of life”? :D
Hi Neoplato!!

Yes it does seem to fit. When we die do we not become that which we have been conscious of, and out of which we had arose.


"The earth peoples as the apple tree apples." Alan Watts
"Those whom know the most must mourn the deepest orr the fatal truth, the tree of knowledge is not that of life." Goethe

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Post by BiggieDe »

ideas are the stuff of which the emotions work upon; you can read something in the form of an idea, a principle, a philosophy and sometimes know how you feel emotionally about them.
Actually, I think it's the other way around. Ideas work on emotions. I like the definition of an emotion as "energy in motion." Healthy emotions are energy pulses that flows through our experience free of associations of "good" and "bad." They often times get labeled as "good" or "bad" from the conditioning we've acquired from our prior life. These associations block healthy energy flow associated with emotions. Emotions then can become toxic.
What is it that lives and dies but an extended experience as what you are.
Here's a statement that I want to break up into a bunch of separate assumptions. The phrase, "extended experience" sounds to me like you're referring to words? If so, that's not quite present moment experience, or the "now" that enlightenment is so fond of reducing life to. Maybe you're speaking of a "myth of identity" as one more way of describing the ego.

When Joseph Campbell pointed out that what people are really looking for is a sense of the rapture of being alive, that rapture depends upon the relationship you have with the world, it is an uncluttered mind I believe. Perhaps it was once natural to experience this rapture, but I believe today in our complex world we need a conscious intent to reach a condition where we can again experience this.
Uncluttered minds are achieved by purging oneself of egoic thought. That's not easy to do. But that is the "condition" you speak of in which we experience rapture.

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Post by Neoplato »

Yes we are conditioned by our experiences of family and community and as we experience we have thoughts about these experiences. We then have emotions about the thoughts we’ve had about our experiences, it is a witch’s brew. If you cannot change the context which is tending to define you, you need to take creative charge and alter your thoughts about your experience and/or alter your emotional feelings about the thoughts of your experiences. I see myths as tools for restructuring one’s psyche, identity itself can never be complete, can never be more than a gaseous cloud formation of associated ideas. As Schopenhauer said when the eyes close in death, a world ceases to be.
When we’re forced to drink a witch’s brew,
Which poisons bodies through and through,
Remember to OurSelves be true,
And life again begins anew.
Last edited by Neoplato on Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

Painted Owl
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Post by Painted Owl »

“Ideas are the stuff of which the emotions work upon; you can read something in the form of an idea, a principle, a philosophy and sometimes know how you feel emotionally about them.” Painted Owl quote

“Actually, I think it's the other way around. Ideas work on emotions. I like the definition of an emotion as "energy in motion." Healthy emotions are energy pulses that flows through our experience free of associations of "good" and "bad." They often times get labelled as "good" or "bad" from the conditioning we've acquired from our prior life. These associations block healthy energy flow associated with emotions. Emotions then can become toxic.” BiggieDe quote

Hi BiggieDe!

Actually in some ways ideas are not unlike physical objects, they both cause thought and a physiological response. In some sense it is all reaction on the part of an individual, one reacts cognitively, physically and emotionally. This is true even in meditation, where one can play with the concepts of subject and object to bring them together, the mind not really knowing that the object within the minds eye is not a physical object.
What is it that lives and dies but an extended experience as what you are? Painted Owl
“Here's a statement that I want to break up into a bunch of separate assumptions. The phrase, "extended experience" sounds to me like you're referring to words? If so, that's not quite present moment experience, or the "now" that enlightenment is so fond of reducing life to. Maybe you're speaking of a "myth of identity" as one more way of describing the ego.” BiggieDe quote

No I was not referring to words, I was referring to the experience of the continuity of the self of identity, the I that continues to be your identity throughout your life, it is an extended experience regardless of how that continuity comes about.


When Joseph Campbell pointed out that what people are really looking for is a sense of the rapture of being alive, that rapture depends upon the relationship you have with the world, it is an uncluttered mind I believe. Perhaps it was once natural to experience this rapture, but I believe today in our complex world we need a conscious intent to reach a condition where we can again experience this. Painted Owl
Uncluttered minds are achieved by purging oneself of egoic thought. That's not easy to do. But that is the "condition" you speak of in which we experience rapture." BiggieDe.[/quote]

Many people have different understandings as to what ego is, to some it is consciousness of one’s own identity, if that is what you mean; I agree this can get in the way of pure experience, and I believe pure is experience is the state in which rapture occurs.
"Those whom know the most must mourn the deepest orr the fatal truth, the tree of knowledge is not that of life." Goethe

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Post by Painted Owl »

When we’re forced to drink a witch’s brew,
Which poisons bodies through and through,
Remember to ourselves be true,
And life again begins anew.
[/quote]

YO! Neoplato,

When it is in reference to identity certainly some identities are toxic. I have had the experience of being without identity briefly, when I did recover my identity it was not entirely pleasing. Identity is the brew of consciousness within a given context, not really a willed process. That is about as far as I'll go to trying and analyse your little rhyme--lol!
"Those whom know the most must mourn the deepest orr the fatal truth, the tree of knowledge is not that of life." Goethe

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Post by Neoplato »

Maybe I should have capitalized the "O" and "S"?
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

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Post by Painted Owl »

Neoplato wrote:Maybe I should have capitalized the "O" and "S"?
Neoplato,

I have not the foggiest!
"Those whom know the most must mourn the deepest orr the fatal truth, the tree of knowledge is not that of life." Goethe

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