Lecture I.1.2 - The Individual in Oriental Mythology

This forum is for focused discussions on The Collected Lectures of Joseph Campbell. Each lecture has its own dedicated conversation.

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Ercan Arisoy
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Post by Ercan Arisoy »

I'd like to quote from Stephen R. Covey:
Character Ethic assumes that there are some absolute principles that exist in all human beings. Some examples of such principles are fairness, honesty, integrity, human dignity, quality, potential, and growth. Principles contrast with practices in that practices are for specific situations whereas principles have universal application.
(According to the character ethic, it is most important to focus on integrating the principles of effective living into one's character. This may be a long-term process, but working on the character, including an effective view of the world, is getting at the root from which behavior flows and so is fundamental. The character ethic sees individual development as a long-term process bearing results according to the law of the harvest.
According to the personality ethic, there are skills and techniques one may learn and a public image, personality and attitudes one may develop that result in success. The problem is, eventually we may be discovered as insincere and shallow. These ideas may be helpful when they flow naturally from a good character and the right motives, but they are secondary.)
The problem with relying on the Personality Ethic is that unless the basic underlying paradigms are right, simply changing outward behavior is not effective.

I am a believer of the Secular Religion of Social Consciousness.

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Post by jonsjourney »

The character ethic sees individual development as a long-term process bearing results according to the law of the harvest.
Interesting. I see some truth in there.

I was wondering, the thought popped into my head, as I read the above quote what the average age of a contributor to these forums is. I tend to agree with Jung and most Native American thinkers that we do not really begin to 'get it' until we reach middle age. Many put it from age 35 to 40 when the process really begins. I wonder if there are many who come to Campbell and stay with the process of mythological explorations that are below the age of say...30. I first read The Power of Myth when I was only 20, and while it was powerful in many respects, it wasn't until I was older that I began to truly apply what I read.

I also wonder, is there often some life event 'catalyst' which propels us toward this process of self-actualization? ...or 'individuation', or whatever term may be applicable to the process of inward reflection, outward projection and social contribution. I can say that there was an event in my life which helped me along...I wonder if that it universally true?

I know that many people do not go through this process. They remain fixated on materialistic concerns well into their retirement years and then find themselves facing death without having really contemplated what life is/was. Many experience a sort-of fox hole battleground conversion to cover their bases, so to speak.

So much of what we talk about in all of the topic areas of these forums is really, when it all boils down to it, about the meaning of life. It is fascinating to see all the ways that we dance around the biggest question, no? We use myths, religion, psychology, science, philosophy, literature, anthropology...and on and on...but it all comes back to trying to make some sense of this wonderful life of joy and suffering.

I thought I might share a few quotes along these lines...
You will never be happy if you continue to search for what happiness consists of. You will never live if you are looking for the meaning of life. -Albert Camus
Really? I respectfully disagree Mr. Camus!
What is the meaning of life? To be happy and useful. -HH The Dalai Lama
Better, I think.
We are survival machines - robot vehicles blindly programmed to preserve the selfish molecules known as genes. This is a truth which still fills me with astonishment.
Richard Dawkins, English biologist
Hmmm...maybe true? But it sure sounds/feels empty.
There may be trouble ahead,
But while there’s moonlight and music and love and romance,
Let’s face the music and dance.
Irving Berlin
Ahhh! Much better, no?
The goal of life is to make your heartbeat match the beat of the universe, to match your nature with Nature. -Joseph Campbell
Thanks Joe! I'll drink to that! Cheers!
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

jufa
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Post by jufa »

Is there anyone past, or present who can ask themselves what is the purpose for their existence, or what purpose life has? One answer I received from one who called themelves a non-believer (whatever that means was
" And those meaning would always be the statements that refer to the object (in this case life), and not to the object itself."


Now this statement means that the statements one refer to is the objectiveness of one's living, and the subjectiveness the foundation for which they have based their existence upon. What is missing, though, is the object itself (in this case life), for it is life which allow any and all statements to come forth from those living that life. Why? because it is life itself which you are, not the objects of life.

So what is meaning? Meaning is always - when looked at rightfully individual perception. Meaning can only be real to the individual because of that individual's ability to live the thoughts they think, whether those thought are considered on a high, or low plane, whether or not those thought can be carried out physically. Meaning, therefore, is the cause and effect of one's life manifested by what they have thought, in the human realm.

From this writers outlook, the reality of meaning, is found within the kingdom of the unconditioned Mind (Is there such a kingdom?), where each individual must come to realize is in them, and they are its image of creation, and the likeness of all within creation. For myself, this means, when and individual enter into the kingdom of the unconditioned Mind - which is where thought has no personality - , there is nothing to oppose the pureness of image and likeness because that what and individual think in this place continues on infinitely one thought at a time, until there is a change of thought. This is why it is stated man is made
"not after the law of carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life."


In this sense, meaning means life is to be lived unconditionally. Why? because life puts no conditions on anyone or anything to live it. What conditions of dualism man acknowledge within his life are home-grown.
Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - jufa
http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com

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Post by Clemsy »

Jon, I find Camus' quote to parallel Campbell's quite well when he says what we are seeking is not meaning, but the experience of being alive. Life just is, and has no in inherent meaning, right? So looking for meaning winds up a red herring.

Which explains why people 'looking for meaning in life' wind up depressed and in therapy.

If they find it, it's because they put it there.

I like your Berlin quote. The way I see it, it's the obverse of Camus'.

So when you say:
So much of what we talk about in all of the topic areas of these forums is really, when it all boils down to it, about the meaning of life.
...I would edit to 'the meaning we paint over life with words.' It's a process of constant refinement. Not only are most of us here probably in that post 30 category, we're also mostly writers. Not in the commercial, but in the sense that it's probably a stronger medium for us than others.

Ercan, your turn!
Character Ethic assumes that there are some absolute principles that exist in all human beings. Some examples of such principles are fairness, honesty, integrity, human dignity, quality, potential, and growth.

...This may be a long-term process, but working on the character, including an effective view of the world, is getting at the root from which behavior flows and so is fundamental. The character ethic sees individual development as a long-term process bearing results according to the law of the harvest.

...The problem with relying on the Personality Ethic is that unless the basic underlying paradigms are right, simply changing outward behavior is not effective.
Excellent! The question then is how to nurture those absolute principles you mention, and minimize their opposites which are also absolute principles that exist in us all.

This lay at the heart of the question of Western Individualism. You bring to mind my favorite Campbell quote, which I've seeded all over these fora and speaks to your point:
For even in the sphere of Waking Consciousness, the fixed and the set fast, there is nothing now that endures. The known myths cannot endure. The known God cannot endure. Whereas formerly, for generations, life so held to established norms that the lifetime of a deity could be reckoned in millenniums, today all norms are in flux, so that the individual is thrown, willy-nilly, back upon himself, into the inward sphere of his own becoming, his forest adventurous without way or path, to come through his own integrity in experience to his own intelligible Castle of the Grail—integrity and courage, in experience, in love, in loyalty, and in act. And to this end the guiding myths can no longer be of any ethnic norms. No sooner learned, these are outdated, out of place, washed away. There are today no horizons, no mythogenetic zones. Or rather, the mythogenetic zone is the individual heart. Individualism and spontaneous pluralism—the free association of men and women of like spirit, under protection of a secular, rational state with no pretensions to divinity—are in the modern world the only honest possibilities: each the creative center of authority for himself, in Cusanus's circle without circumference whose center is everywhere, and where each is the- focus of God's gaze.
Cheers,
Clemsy
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

boringguy
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Post by boringguy »

Hi all,

Clemsy,

Campbell sums up simularly in the end of Myths to Live By:
And so, to return to our opening question: What is---or what is to be---the new mythology?
It is---and will forever be, as long as our human race exists---the old, everlasting, perennial mytholgy, in its "subjective sense", poetically renewed in terms neither of a remembered past nor of a projected future, but of now: addressed, that is to say, not to the flattery of "peoples", but to the waking of individuals in the knowledge of themselves, not simply as egos fighting for place on the surface of this beautiful planet, but equally as centers of Mind at Large---each in his own way at one with all, and with no horizons.
Individuals making up the whole. Life would be so much easier if we were just inherently good at balance. :wink:



jonsj,

It is fascinating to see all the ways that we dance around the biggest question, no? We use myths, religion, psychology, science, philosophy, literature, anthropology...and on and on...but it all comes back to trying to make some sense of this wonderful life of joy and suffering.
Wish I had more time with this, but I'm headed out the door with very little time for the next couple weeks. However maybe a quick thought. It is our nature to question and understand, and we do this in time with concept. I think it's in expecting concept to eliminate Mystery that the problem lies.However I think Campbell hits the nail pretty good as to the root of our questioning with this;
.... these two fundamental realizations---of the inevitability of individual death and the endurance of the social order.......
Death and Life, these are the foundations of the seeking, the other two functions of myth as Campbell gives them, largely lets us expand on these two, I think. Just doesn't seem like it should be that hard when you say it like that. :? Maybe I can get to more later.



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jonsjourney
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Post by jonsjourney »

Jon, I find Camus' quote to parallel Campbell's quite well when he says what we are seeking is not meaning, but the experience of being alive. Life just is, and has no in inherent meaning, right? So looking for meaning winds up a red herring.

Which explains why people 'looking for meaning in life' wind up depressed and in therapy.
Yes, I see that now...I was trying, rather arbitrarily, to find a quote which seemed to be a bit pessimistic about all the inquiry into life's meaning. I think that the search for meaning, is in many ways exactly what makes life meaningful. It is the 'Journey', not the destination. But I can see that the Camus quote is better related to Joe's.

Perhaps?...
An unexamined life is not worth living.
-Socrates
Or?
The absurd of life is born of the confrontation between the human call and the unreasonable silence of the Universe. -Albert Camus
Or??...
The man that is born falls into a dream like a man who falls into the sea. -Joseph Conrad
Ah hell...I don't know! :roll:
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

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Post by Neoplato »

Which explains why people 'looking for meaning in life' wind up depressed and in therapy.
I think they wind up depressed because they either can't understand or accept the answer. Kind of like the wealthy man who asked Jesus, "What can I do to earn salvation?" and Jesus answered "Give up all you have and follow me".
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

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Post by Evinnra »

Why be depressed?

The goal of life is to make your heartbeat match the beat of the universe, to match your nature with Nature. -Joseph Campbell
An unexamined life is not worth living. - Socrates
And contrary to popular belief, the meaning of life is not always 42. Sometimes it is necessarily 24. :roll: :lol:
'A fish popped out of the water only to be recaptured again. It is as I, a slave to all yet free of everything.'
http://evinnra-evinnra.blogspot.com

jonsjourney
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Post by jonsjourney »

And contrary to popular belief, the meaning of life is not always 42
What?????????????????? Oh NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :shock:
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

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Post by Clemsy »

DON'T PANIC!

And, just as important, don't lose your towel.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

Evinnra Wrote:
And contrary to popular belief, the meaning of life is not always 42. Sometimes it is necessarily 24
.

I’ve also calculated it to be 62 or maybe 400+900=1300. (But can you figure out the question?) :D

However, I noticed that the Buddha, in the attainment of enlightenment spent 6 periods of 7 days accomplishing various tasks. Coincidence? :wink:
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

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Post by littlewing »

Clemsy:
It is also ironic that the Levantine tradition also calls for personal responsibility within the given code. However, human nature being what it is, if infantilism (I want) is actually reinforced by claiming that only a code can restrain our infantile nature, and that there is no growth beyond the need of the code (Enlightened Individualism is not possible) only enough to submit to the code, then, in the absence of regulation, greed and other forms of self-aggrandizement will rule....In conclusion (I think!), the collision with the Western idea of capitalism with the Levantine definition of the individual tends to result in environmental and economic disaster.
I agree it's a bad marriage; and here we are saddled with it right now. I also agree that part of the remedy is true character building, a child necessarily of individuation. That said, nor do I want to dispense with anybody's stage of growth; ethnicity; belief systems. The ideal (and problem) is how to live in a balance that's friendly; and healthy for us and the planet.

Someplace where heads can meet between Levantines and Freethinkers is mindful conservatism. Levantines interpret conservation as being "stewards" of the land, which I see as part of a destructive philosophy. It is at least a philosophy that supports sustainability. And though their pov may differ, they would agree happiness lies in living in a world of relationships to each other rather than happiness in things (however small or large an amount). They do have an ethical code beyond that of personality building. And they can be persuaded to understand that endless consumerism is bankrupting that ethic (morals, in their terms).

That makes Levantines potential bedfellows in battle against the same Corporatocracy that has wooed their vote. We really don't have capitalism any more. Hong Kong has capitalism. We start small businesses here struggling against the regulations favoring franchises and corporatism. We have plenty of regulations; they are just supporting the wrong people. One could say capitalism's natural destination is corporatism. But since that's what's killing our nation right now, maybe there's a way to keep it from becoming a freight ride to corporate and ethical oblivion.

I'm just not a good Anarchist. Got a lot of friends who are. And I agree with them that Tribalism is the best form of government, because it's so small. But in a world of huge population proportions, it just isn't realistic, I don't think. I'm looking for a governing system that may not exist: one that blends the individualism of capitalism (with a small c as opposed to the behemoth Corporatism that bids for world control) with the group conscience of Socialism. There would be room in that structure for Enlightened Individualism to prosper. Or am I just full of it??? :lol:

lw

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You can't let go and you can't hold on
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If the thunder don't get you then the lightning will....Robert Hunter of the Grateful Dead

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Post by littlewing »

I gotta thank Nixon for Conservation?? I'll bite. What did he do??

lw

Aldo Leopold--John Muir--Richard Nixon--yikes?

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Post by Clemsy »

Nixon created the Environmental Protection Agency.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

littlewing
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Post by littlewing »

That certainly deserves a tip of the hat! I wonder if the EPA will regain that great set of sharp teeth it had.

lw

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