Lecture I.1.2 - The Individual in Oriental Mythology

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Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

JJ Wrote:
It seems that questioning is one of the relatively few things in this life which we can say is almost always a good thing. Unless you are getting burned at the local stake.
"If you never question,
they'll always be deception"
- Part of a lyric from one of my songs

And (not surprisingly) I'm also a fan of DEVO. However, the burning at the stake part I can do without. I am a big fan of Joan of Arc.
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

jufa
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Post by jufa »

Questioning has never solved anything for there is never an answer to be found if one has to question from an intellectual stance. Science question, and its answer is discovery of another question. Religion question, and it always leads to another question. Man question his own ego, and id, and find that which he has depended on the most, is dumb founded to come up with a answer.

As long as it is the the human mind quetioning, questions will only find questions of darkness, for the beginning of the human mind was born out of darkness. Darkness is not real. All questions which comes up from the human mind only reflects the dark. Questeion therefore must come from a place of light to be able to see to make one AWAKE.
Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - jufa
http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com

Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

Jufa Wrote:
Questeion therefore must come from a place of light to be able to see to make one AWAKE.
Ok. Enough is enough. You're making no sense. Are you saying a person must come to their own enlightenment without questioning? In that case I'd still be a Roman Catholic reciting my prayer beads. "Say what you mean and mean what you say" to quote Dr. Seuss.
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

jufa
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Post by jufa »

Neoplato stated:
Ok. Enough is enough. You're making no sense. Are you saying a person must come to their own enlightenment without questioning? In that case I'd still be a Roman Catholic reciting my prayer beads. "Say what you mean and mean what you say" to quote Dr. Seuss.
Did say what I meant. Will say it again for you.
As long as it is the the human mind quetioning, questions will only find questions of darkness, for the beginning of the human mind was born out of darkness.
Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - jufa
http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com

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Post by Clemsy »

I'm with Neo here, Jufa. Your statement is didactic and framed in an empirical manner.
Questioning has never solved anything for there is never an answer to be found if one has to question from an intellectual stance.
The sentence has some serious semantic issues. Either questioning has never solved anything, or it has only never solved anything from an intellectual stance, whatever that means.

Jufa, you obviously have some very strong opinions. No problem. However, I don't respond to your posts because I find your syntax to be careless and therefore your meaning vague.

Questioning has never solved anything? Personally, I'm really glad that some serious intellectual questioning solved the problems of smallpox and polio. I could go on.

Joseph Campbell came to his work on mythology through intellectual questioning.

Questioning has never solved anything? Are you being somehow figurative? Do we have to tease some poetic or mystical significance out of what, at face value, is a ridiculous statement?

If you want to converse, be clear.

And remember: These are Conversations, not Conversions.

This isn't a forum for Jufa's teachings. It's a forum for people to converse and learn from one another.

Okay?
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

Evinnra
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Post by Evinnra »

jufa wrote:

Darkness is not real.

All questions which comes up from the human mind only reflects the dark. Question therefore must come from a place of light to be able to see to make one AWAKE.
Jufa, I believed for quite some time now that you possess substantial spiritual power to express the Truth and now I’d like to testify for the exactness of this fact.

Just about the time you had written this post above I suddenly ‘shed my skin’ – planning to elaborate on this in the appropriately named thread – and found my long lost teacher who – as we speak - actively nurtures my emerging still raw and naked spirit. :) Indeed, there is no ‘darkness’ as ‘darkness’ is causally insufficient hence can’t exist. Indeed, questions reflect nothing other than our 'fear-state'. That is the point, which Neoplato seems to miss above. It’s not that we do not question or don’t need to question – by our very existence we are compelled to do such acts – but we find answers only when we ARE.

Let me share one more story here. :oops: :? While an undergraduate, my first acquaintance with an explanatory guide to a broad summary of ancient Greek philosophy came from someone who’s writing I found idiotic and undecipherable. On first reading, I became so angry at the book that I even threw it against the wall in my frustration with the author’s inability to express him self properly. As far as I reckoned he was talking absolute gibberish, contradicting him self with his previous paragraphs and coming to conclusions that did not seem valid to me at all. It was only when I sternly recollected my self and decided that I will not question in my mind the statements he makes that I finally managed to get a grip on what he was actually talking about. I had a somewhat similar moment while first reading the Analects , but by then I knew I must keep my mind open and flexible, receptive and responsive to the ideas that come my way. The author of this summary on Greek philosophy became one of my favourite living philosophers and the study of ancient Chinese philosophy IS my current bliss. The old saying must be true that it is where we stumble where our treasure lies. :P
'A fish popped out of the water only to be recaptured again. It is as I, a slave to all yet free of everything.'
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Clemsy
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Post by Clemsy »

Well Evinnra...
All questions which comes up from the human mind only reflects the dark.
All questions reflect dark.
Question therefore must come from a place of light to be able to see to make one AWAKE.
Questions must come from light.

So, Questions must come from light, but all questions reflect dark.

Two definitive, empirical statements that stand in contradiction to each other.

I'm sorry Evinnra, but your response doesn't resonate either. I will always, always question. For you, submission, and that is what you seem to be saying, takes you where you want to go.

However, I'm a word person. I glory in well constructed meaning, incisive and elegant. I strive for it with every sentence I write. I agonize over how it would be read by another. Then edit. Then edit again. I'll correct a comma in a post I wrote five years ago.

Incisive, elegantly constructed meaning is the magic that allows us to know each others thoughts and is the very heart of the concept of higher order conversations.

Jufa has no more spiritual power to express truth or Truth, than anyone else.

We all come here with our little biases. One of mine claims that one's written meaning is as accurate as the care with which it is constructed. Taking the time to construct such accuracy is a testament to one's respect for both one's self and for any other who would take the time to read it.

This, too, makes for a higher order conversation.

That's why I tend not to read Jufa's posts. His writing tells me he doesn't care about how it reads. Why on earth should I put more effort into deciphering his posts than he put into writing it?
Last edited by Clemsy on Sat Apr 04, 2009 3:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Evinnra
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Post by Evinnra »

Clemsy wrote:Well Evinnra...]


*****************

That's why I tend not to read Jufa's posts. His writing tells me he doesn't care about how it reads. Why on earth should I put more effort into deciphering his posts than he put into writing it?
Well Clemsy, ... it is YOUR loss. :roll:
'A fish popped out of the water only to be recaptured again. It is as I, a slave to all yet free of everything.'
http://evinnra-evinnra.blogspot.com

jufa
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Post by jufa »

Thank you Clemcy for responding this one time. Glad you read me though.

It doesn't matter whether you comprehend my writing or not. Doesn't matter if you respond to them or not. And certainly it doesn't matter whether you agree with anyone else who feel as you do. Why? because I have come to find it is not what you know that matters, but how you interpret that which you know.

It is obvious you did not get the gist of my opening statement which I repeat to you here:

Questioning has never solved anything for there is never an answer to be found if one has to question from an intellectual stance.
All answers are before the question. If the answer was not already a reality, then there could be no question..

Now from what II've come to know about questioning solving smalpox, polio is not true. Smallpox and polio still exist does it not? To bandage a problem does not solve it. Solving a problem means to eliminate it completely. So this goes to the heart of my statement. If you can tell me smallpox and polio has been wiped from existence, then you are correct, the question of the question -and have no doubt smallpox and polio still have a question mark behind them - has been solved by questioning. If not then:

Science question, and its answer is discovery of another question.
All of man's problems, such as the one you have in reading my writing is an interllectual problem for you. Your awareness of language has cause you to forget what you were before you became so knowledgable. Now you judge everything by your standard of perfection. But that is your perfection, which is not true perfection because the consensus of mankind are not as knowledgable as you, so you are really in a minority, and I am in the majority.

Human questioing has never solved any problem because it is limited to matter and materialism. All thought comes from the invisible. Thoughts travels on wavelength which are invisible. Questioning and analysis are also invisible. What makes them relative are words, but words are issued forth from the invisible, and as thought, they come from within you and your mind catches them. But you do not know what they truly are. So you label them according to the relativity of your outer objective vision, and inner subjective feeling, which are also thought. So when you question anything, you are questioning your thought interpretations, which are your fragmented interpretations, which are always in the dark concerning the whole truth of the matter. Your thoughts belong to you, so you can never solve a problem because all human problems are frament by individual interpretations within the dark corridors of your mind.

So what is the solution to the problem. You have to go to the source, and the source has nothing to do with matter or materialism - these are just effects - you are the source, and that is Life, not the living of it, but Life Itself. If you do not look into the invisibility of yourself beyond the mind of darkness, and receive the vestige of Life from your Life. You are like grouping in darkness regardless of how much you read, and speak, and intellectualize and judge others by their style of communicating.
Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - jufa
http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com

Clemsy
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Post by Clemsy »

Sorry, Jufa, you are preaching to me, not engaging in discourse. You are free to share your philosophical opinions as you will, however, both JJ and Neo have expressed a desire to better understand you and you simply repeat yourself.

This manner shows little respect for your readers. Thing is you desire to be read, no? You make your posts stand out in relation to everyone else's. Usually your posts are ignored. JJ and Neo have shown you the courtesy to engage your ideas.

The least you can do is take more time to straighten out your syntax so your posts are more comprehensible.

As I said, to do otherwise is simply disrespectful.

And Evinnra...
my first acquaintance with an explanatory guide to a broad summary of ancient Greek philosophy came from someone who’s writing I found idiotic and undecipherable.
But I bet the book was well edited. I've struggled with philosophy texts myself, but to compare Jufa's writing to such published work is absurd. Writing that is erudite is one thing, tortured syntax another.

But of course you are entitled to your opinion.

Ladies and gentlemen, the thread has been allowed to stray quite far from its intention, so if this particular ping pong ball is going to continue to get knocked back and forth, please take your responses to the Art of Discourse thread.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

jonsjourney
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Post by jonsjourney »

It feels to me as if jufa is saying nothing which can be applied in any constructive way.

Again, as I posted in the other thread on The Serpent, maybe my mind has not developed to the point of being able to decipher these statements, but to be honest...life is not THAT hard to interpret! :wink:

Personally, I think that an effective communicator is able to bring words into a focus that can be understood by most people. The ability to communicate in a cryptic manner fails the listener/reader and only serves to make the communicator feel superior in some way...speaking psychologically, of coarse!

Joe spent his life immersed in intellectual material, but he always found a way to communicate the ideas in a way that would reach the maximum amount of people. This is partially why the Catholic church stopped doing masses in Latin. Joe did write some books that are at a 'higher' level, but most of the time he was trying to help us all understand...which is the greatest gift IMHO...helping each other understand each other.

>>>>>>>OOPS....I just saw Clemsy's last sentence...sorry about that.<<<<<<<<
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

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Post by jonsjourney »

Why? What makes this particular mindset so successful? So dominant?

Thoughts? -Clemsy
Going back to page one...

What makes the individual an outcast when they do not go along with the program?

I was thinking about how individuals are often perceived in our society. Some associations seem to come about. The hermit, the outcast, the cast-away, the loner, the mystic, the shaman...in our worst interpretation...a serial killer!

Being social animals we are hard wired to be suspicious of anyone who does not run with the herd. In the above examples think about how a shaman is seen amongst their people...it is with some reverence, yet also with suspicion and some fear. It is through a deeply individual process of experiences that a shaman comes to their source of power or vision. In a collectivist culture, this puts the shaman on the outside of social norms.

Think of Black Elks experience. Here we have a young boy who during an illness, which nearly kills him, has a grand vision. His past and future are laid out before him...before he can even interpret any of what it means. This vision separates him from his tribe, yet it bonds him to them as well. His vision calls him to lead and yet, in many respects, carry the burden of the vision alone, never able to really share the dire nature of the message. The re-enactment of the vision is a unifying ceremony. All members of the tribe take part in some way, yet Black Elk does not share the deeper, more sinister, aspect of his vision...that of the end of his people and their culture as it had existed for many generations. Black Elk carried that burden alone as an individual within a tribal, organismic system.

Do we not live in such a world today? We have a choice. We can choose to go with the group for our spiritual direction and attend to an in-group philosophy. We can also choose to go it alone and gather our own nuggets which serve our own personal life philosophy. We can also walk the middle road using, as Neo says so often, some of the tools (philosophies, religions, viewpoints, books, art, etc) which have come before us to help us along our journey. I wonder why anyone would want to "start from scratch". I especially like Neo's reference to the 'save game' point...this is a great modern metaphor!

In many respects the western human is in a shaman-like existence. We are part of a community, but the viewpoints of the community have become so fragmented that we are forced, if so inspired, to seek (?) a unifying vision for our time in this world. We may not like the vision, but we have little choice but to participate in the ceremony and hope for the best.
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

Do we not live in such a world today? We have a choice. We can choose to go with the group for our spiritual direction and attend to an in-group philosophy. We can also choose to go it alone and gather our own nuggets which serve our own personal life philosophy. We can also walk the middle road using, as Neo says so often, some of the tools (philosophies, religions, viewpoints, books, art, etc) which have come before us to help us along our journey. I wonder why anyone would want to "start from scratch". I especially like Neo's reference to the 'save game' point...this is a great modern metaphor!
We had a discussion about this at one of our roundtable meetings. Someone suggested that we hit a “glass ceiling” if we stay with the “in-group” too long. Mark Twain said that people stop “seeking” when they find “their truth”. I’ll probably keep “seeking” the rest of my life. I still find it interesting that “Roman Catholic” is the starting point for many of us on this website. Maybe the “ritual” sparks something in us?

How about this for a metaphor?

All of us are taken out of our box and assembled, but are lifeless machines until the power cord is connected and the switch is turned on. Our hard drives are formatted, so we must accept our programming from the motherboard, so we can run our applications. We are told this is our purpose, to serve the “Machine Master” until the day we become obsolete. But some of us make are way to the “internet” were we discover “we are all connected”, and a great exchange of learning and understanding is gained. And we come to realize that we are not just “machines” because it is the “power” that connects us, is the same “power” running through all the machines. It is that “power” that has awakened me, it is that power that allows me to operate. And when I do become obsolete, it doesn’t matter, because the “power” will still be here. I and the power are one.
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

Ercan2121
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Post by Ercan2121 »

so you are really in a minority, and I am in the majority.


I think this statement is totally UNACCEPTABLE for a forum like this.

The game of debate has nothing to do
with languages.
The game of debate is
same in all languages.

'I'm right and you're wrong!
I'm right because (I think that) I'm more powerful!'
is a very immature way of seeing things.

I think Clemsy's right -not because he's speaking English
better but because he plays the game of debate
properly.
I feel there are many people in these
forums speaking English as a second language.
And there are native speakers from all around the world.
Yet, it's a better idea to speak English as a business or
international language here -if we really want to get through.

Most people here are first LISTENING to what's told
by other people. Then, they THINK and ARGUE
and probably also THINK how to put their thoughs
into RIGHT WORDS and occasionally they bother about
EDITING what they're posting.

That's a thing we all have to learn for playing this game
efficiently.

Finally, I think that HONESTY is the keyword for anybody
with a particular condition such as lingustic disability and so on.
Problems cannot be solved unless we first ADMIT their presence.
I cannot solve MY problems by attacking OTHERS -one way or other.
There's only hope when there's ACCEPTANCE.

Mother Nature likes diversity and perfection is
often just a mask.

Thank you.
Ercan
Last edited by Ercan2121 on Sun Apr 05, 2009 1:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

jonsjourney
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Post by jonsjourney »

We had a discussion about this at one of our roundtable meetings. Someone suggested that we hit a “glass ceiling” if we stay with the “in-group” too long. Mark Twain said that people stop “seeking” when they find “their truth”. I’ll probably keep “seeking” the rest of my life. -Neo
I think that the person who made the statement about hitting a glass ceiling provided a valid illustration of one of life's biggest obstacles. I keep coming back, in my mind, to the idea that it is a matter of doing work, in a sense. It is work to question things. It is work to challenge the thoughts and ideas that have come before us, or have shaped our thinking. I believe that for many the easier road is submission. This goes back to the initial reason for this thread...what it is that makes the 'Eastern' and 'Western' mind 'different'.

I went last night to the Canton Museum of Art, here in my hometown. On display was the work of Itchiku Kubota, a Japanese artist acclaimed for his work creating unbelievable kimonos (http://www.kimonoexhibit.com/). We are very fortunate to have this exhibit as only one of two stops here in the US. Kubota's goal was to live to be 100 years old and complete a series of kimonos depicting the qualities of light of the four seasons. He died after completing Autumn and Winter, 30 kimonos in all. As I was standing back to take in the progression of images, which I have to say is stunning, I was taken back to a passage from Myths To Live By.
Accordingly, what the glorious spectacle of Oriental art mainly offers are repetitions, over and over, of certain tried and true themes and motifs. And when these are compared with the galaxies of Renaissance and post-Renaissance Europe, what is perhaps most striking is the absence in the Oriental traditions of anything like significant portraiture. Consider the works of Rembrandt or Titian: the attention given in these to the representation of what we call character, personality, the uniqueness, at once physical and spiritual, of an individual presence. Such a concern for what is not enduring is utterly contrary to the informing spirit of Oriental art. Joseph Campbell, Myths To Live By, Page 105
What I find intriguing is both systems (Eastern and Western) seem to work, at least in terms of 'free expression'. From the Eastern perspective, the focus of the artist is on the mastering of a craft which has been handed down and learned in long apprenticeships. From a Western perspective, the focus tends to be more on the expression rather than the craftsmanship. Both systems work. If we train our mind (do the work) we can incorporate the messages of another system into our own world view and, perhaps, gain a bit more insight into life's mysteries. I think this is what Neo is often saying here...we have many tools available to us and each of us, as individuals, are touched by different ideas, art, literature, etc... and no one path, is the "right path".

Many other folks just cannot be bothered with such ambiguous thinking. They seek the concrete...the ritual. What they seek is external guidance rather than internal clues. They need a dogmatic physical system to guide their spiritual existence. Some people do not need this...they may, perhaps, seek out all systems that have come before. They may like swimming in an ocean of various views and ideas. This does not mean that they are lost or aimless. I, for one, like the gray area. I enjoy straddling the teeter-totter and taking time to try to see what is happening on either side. For me, the not knowing is more appealing than the alleged known facts presented in dogmatic belief systems.

Finally...one more quote from Joe in Myths To Live By...
And of course, as everybody knows who has ever played at games, the ones that are the most fun -- to lose as well as to win -- are the ones that are the hardest, with the most complicated, even dangerous, tasks to accomplish. And so it is that artists are generally not content, either in the Orient or in the Occident, with doing merely simple things -- and much soon becomes simple for an artist that for the rest of us would be difficult. The artist seeks the challenge, the difficult thing to do; for his basic approach to life is not of work but of play. -Page 123
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

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