Lecture I.1.2 - The Individual in Oriental Mythology

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Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

JJ Wrote:
The title for anyone interested in fact checking, etc...is Testing mindfulness with perceptual and cognitive factors: External vs. internal encoding, and the cognitive failures questionnaire. Whew! Sounds scary!
Not at all, this stuff is GREAT! Pretty soon I can add “Armchair Psychologist” to my list of self-given titles. :D
When I started re-reading some of these that I have read over the years, it became more obvious that being mindful is very much about removing emotional attachment to what we perceive. This is tricky stuff to grasp here in the West, we tend to attach emotion to everything, no?
I believe that the key to “changing the mind” (or “healing the mind”) is right in line with the Buddhist notion of “meditation”. However, I think the notion of “meditation” has different meanings to different people. By “meditation” I don’t mean sitting on the floor chanting Om, Um, Ohm all day (although that can be relaxing). I use the terms “meditation” and “meta-cognition” synonymously. “Why am I thinking this way?” “What is causing me to perceive this in a negative way?” “Why does this make me feel angry/jealous/hurt?”

Only by achieving the state of “meta-cognitive thought” do I feel that a person can actually me “mindful”. I become aware of an internal reaction, look at it from an “external” perspective, and then the internal reaction subsides and I let go. Strong emotional responses hinder this process (believe me, I know).

I think the “ego” plays a strong part on the emotional side. Now eliminating the ego, may be a separate notion than mindfulness, but I’ll throw the question out there. Can a person truly be “mindful” and have an “ego”? Isn’t the ego all about “internalizing”?

I’ve been attending an Eckhart Tolle meetup group. I associate “living in the now” the same thing as being “mindful”. However, Tolle does focus on the elimination of the ego to achieve this. It’s interesting that some people interpret the notion of “living in the now” as “being oblivious to outside stimuli”. “I don’t have to file my tax return, because I’m living in the now”. Whereas I think a mindful person would say “I need to take time to fill out my tax forms so I don’t have to pay a fine”. The difference here I believe is that a mindful person is “proactive” to outside stimulus. Thoughts?

A hermit may be constantly “living in the now”, but to live in a “society”, a person should be “mindful”.
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Post by jonsjourney »

I hope to be an armchair philosopher too! Oh yeah, I already am!

I am off to California for 5 days, so I will have to respond to what Neo wrote then, but I think he is right on the money in terms of meta-cognition!
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

Hey JJ,

Have a good trip. Wish I could come with you.
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

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Post by Evinnra »

Evinnra wrote:
… However, if mindfulness of the moment is the process of being aware of the innate energy spent on perception, then it seems mindfulness of the energy spent on dealing with emotions would be easily recognisable to even an internally encoding perception. …
:shock: :oops: :roll: :? Ok, I’m lost now. Was my definition of mindfulness satisfactory ? Gentlemen, from your answers I can’t figure out whether you have understood the meaning of my previous post or have I managed to confuse everyone on board again. To put it very simply, I attempted to argue that mindfulness has different types of benefits for the externally and internally encoding perceptions. Is it my definition of mindfulness that is off in your view, or is it my claim that you are not answering, or have I missed something in your answers? :?
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Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

… However, if mindfulness of the moment is the process of being aware of the innate energy spent on perception, then it seems mindfulness of the energy spent on dealing with emotions would be easily recognisable to even an internally encoding perception. …

Ok, I’m lost now. Was my definition of mindfulness satisfactory ? Gentlemen, from your answers I can’t figure out whether you have understood the meaning of my previous post or have I managed to confuse everyone on board again. To put it very simply, I attempted to argue that mindfulness has different types of benefits for the externally and internally encoding perceptions. Is it my definition of mindfulness that is off in your view, or is it my claim that you are not answering, or have I missed something in your answers?
I think that’s the most emoticons I’ve seen used at one time. :shock:

I was just throwing out there what I perceive when I hear the word “mindfulness”. (Disclaimer: My degree isn’t in Psychology. :( ) “Being aware” are the key words. It looks like our definitions are somewhat different given that you state “being aware of energy” where I think it’s more “being aware of the perception (reaction)”, and then I tack on, “and analyzing the cause of this perception (reaction)”.

I’m not sure that a typical person is aware of how much energy they are spending on emotions. I know people who would rather argue with me for a half hour about “why they have to do the work” when it only takes 10 minutes to do the work.

“Different types of benefits for external and internal encoding”. Mmmm…It appears I’ve been talking about “external” encoding. I guess the notion of “internal encoding” and “ego” seems a bit odd to me. Maybe this is along the lines of the concept of “Humanism”.

I can see how “internal encoding” can help anyone to be a “Good Human” and the concept of ego and emotions remains intact. I wouldn’t see the need for “meta-cognition” either. However, I would think this behavior would have to “learned” based on belief structure on how “humans should act”.

However, I do see more of a benefit in external encoding. Instead of thinking “I’m angry, I’m not being a good human”, I think “I’m angry, what are the causes of my anger, and how can I eliminate this reaction to a situation” or “What is it about this external situation that is causing my anger?”

I can either accept the fact that 5x4=10 or I can understand why 5x4=10. (I’m phishing here, I meant to write “10”) :)
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

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Post by jufa »

Evinnra wrote:
Evinnra wrote:
… However, if mindfulness of the moment is the process of being aware of the innate energy spent on perception, then it seems mindfulness of the energy spent on dealing with emotions would be easily recognisable to even an internally encoding perception. …
:shock: :oops: :roll: :? Ok, I’m lost now. Was my definition of mindfulness satisfactory ? Gentlemen, from your answers I can’t figure out whether you have understood the meaning of my previous post or have I managed to confuse everyone on board again. To put it very simply, I attempted to argue that mindfulness has different types of benefits for the externally and internally encoding perceptions. Is it my definition of mindfulness that is off in your view, or is it my claim that you are not answering, or have I missed something in your answers? :?
It is no surprise you feel lost. You cannot get an honest response to what you are saying because:

All men came into this world backwards. And as they move from the womb, to infant, to pre-adolescent, to adolescent, to teenager, and manhood, they continue their backward journey on into the world. Every moment of man's conscious awareness is the backwards study and absorption of the revelations of other men's theories and dreams, concepts, opinions, and beliefs. Not daring to seek and take responsibility to find what is right and appropriate for their individual living, they indulge themselves in unproven assumptions, to them, with the hope of recapturing what belongs to others and make it their own.

Few men there be who dream beyond a human subject matter, or object material vision. Dreams which will carry them in their unconscious and conscious moments to a peak experience beyond human self, or human epiphany of intellectual knowledge. Dreams which will reveal answers to questions such as: Is a thought finalized as object matter? Or is matter only the subject matter of interpreted thought? Are man's thought interpretations conditional to his thinking and what his mind projects? Or is man's independent thinking the reality of object matter, when the subject matter of the object thought upon has no logical reason for existence? Does the subject matter become the object matter for analyzing unconditionally? Or do men apply conditions upon the object matter by way of thought, which changes the subject matter from object to theories based on outer objective vision, and inner subjective feelings? Finally, does man's sense of thought become conditional upon his judging from his outer objective visions? Or is it man's inner subjective feelings which cement effect and beliefs by allowing the imagination to label images, without knowledge as his ancestors did in times of old?
Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - jufa
http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com

Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

Jufa wrote:
It is no surprise you feel lost. You cannot get an honest response to what you are saying because:

All men came into this world backwards. And as they move from the womb, to infant, to pre-adolescent, to adolescent, to teenager, and manhood, they continue their backward journey on into the world.
“Backward Journey”? :roll: I prefer to think of it as “the rediscovery of knowledge” or “bringing the knowledge of the unconscious to the conscious mind”. Whether we call this “meta-cognition”,“mindfulness”, “The Power of Now”, “living the moment”, etc. isn’t relevant. The focus should be on the meaning, and not the “word” used for the name.
Every moment of man's conscious awareness is the backwards study and absorption of the revelations of other men's theories and dreams, concepts, opinions, and beliefs.
I do not agree with this statement. I decided to follow the path into the forest. If people before me left markers along the trail in an effort to assist others that will come later, that is to my benefit. When I stepped in the woods, I didn’t expect any assistance. If I come across a tree marked “Joseph Campbell was here”, I can only hope that it will help me as I journey deeper into the trees.
Not daring to seek and take responsibility to find what is right and appropriate for their individual living, they indulge themselves in unproven assumptions, to them, with the hope of recapturing what belongs to others and make it their own.
I think I should be offended here. :twisted: The reason I participate in this forum is because I like to hear other people’s opinions and share my own. If I learn something from someone else’s opinion, I’m not “stealing” it; I’m assimilating it into my schema.
Few men there be who dream beyond a human subject matter, or object material vision. Dreams which will carry them in their unconscious and conscious moments to a peak experience beyond human self, or human epiphany of intellectual knowledge.
Now I can’t disagree with this statement. However, isn’t this the reason we wind up here? Or are you saying that this is an ability that can’t be learned over time? Or maybe you’re being more specific and saying that this ability is beyond my comprehension? :(
Dreams which will reveal answers to questions such as: Is a thought finalized as object matter? Or is matter only the subject matter of interpreted thought? Are man's thought interpretations conditional to his thinking and what his mind projects? Or is man's independent thinking the reality of object matter, when the subject matter of the object thought upon has no logical reason for existence? Does the subject matter become the object matter for analyzing unconditionally? Or do men apply conditions upon the object matter by way of thought, which changes the subject matter from object to theories based on outer objective vision, and inner subjective feelings? Finally, does man's sense of thought become conditional upon his judging from his outer objective visions? Or is it man's inner subjective feelings which cement effect and beliefs by allowing the imagination to label images, without knowledge as his ancestors did in times of old?
Boy…those are some mighty fine questions. It’s too bad they’re beyond my comprehension, so I guess I should keep my opinions to myself. :? I better stick with “Cave Man Philosophy”.
:wink:
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

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Post by jufa »

Neoplato Wrote:
“Backward Journey”? I prefer to think of it as “the rediscovery of knowledge”


It does not make one iota of difference what you prefer, because is it true or not, you came into this world backwards? And is it true or not, if it is a journey of rediscovery, you are then retracing your steps backwards to gain what has always been in your consciousness?

Regardless of how rational you view this point, still, you cannot deny your clear path into the forest has been paved by those who have gone before you. Whether you benefit for your following in some one else's clearance, is irrelevent to the face that you are following and absorping what someone else had to achieve on their own

I think I should be offended here. The reason I participate in this forum is because I like to hear other people’s opinions and share my own.


Why should you think you are offended if your purpose for joining this forum was to here some one else's opinions. I expressed my opinion which you came here to hear. And when is it stealing when as you say

:
If people before me left markers along the trail in an effort to assist others that will come later, that is to my benefit.If people before me left markers along the trail in an effort to assist others that will come later, that is to my benefit.


Are you stealing from H. Ford when you drive and automobile? Or Edison when you use a light bulb? Are you stealing from Plato when you use his name as a part of yours?

Now I can’t disagree with this statement. However, isn’t this the reason we wind up here? Or are you saying that this is an ability that can’t be learned over time? Or maybe you’re being more specific and saying that this ability is beyond my comprehension?


Am not saying anything is beyond your comprehension for what do I know about your comprehension? And I am not making this a personal assumption about you, as you have indicated. Am saying a man can never know that life is unconditional until he begin to think beyond his conditional world. Isn't this what A, G. Bell, Edison, The Wright Brothers, and all those men and women, and even children did to make the world more beneficial? Did not Campbell go beyond conformity to spread what he had learned?

Boy…those are some mighty fine questions. It’s too bad they’re beyond my comprehension, so I guess I should keep my opinions to myself. I better stick with “Cave Man Philosophy”.


Why not go, at least attempt to dare be bold, beyond what you deem is a lack of comprehension, and ask and answers the questions within you?

A man can't know where he's at until he knows where he's been. A man can't know where he's going until he dreams and vision a goal beyond - jufa
Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - jufa
http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com

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Post by Neoplato »

A man can't know where he's at until he knows where he's been. A man can't know where he's going until he dreams and vision a goal beyond - jufa
"Don't need to know where I'm going, just need to know where I've been"
-Tow Mater (on driving backwards) :wink:
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

jufa
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Post by jufa »

Every moment of man's conscious awareness is the backwards study and absorption of the revelations of other men's theories and dreams, concepts, opinions, and beliefs - jufa
.
Don't need to know where I'm going, just need to know where I've been"
-Tow Mater (on driving backwards - Neoplato
Here again it is evident that what I stated has been witnessed to.
following and absorping what someone else had to achieve on their own - jufa
Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - jufa
http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com

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Post by Clemsy »

I want to visit one of JJ's posts on the previous page. (I've been having one of those "I can understand the impulse to be a monk!" sort of weeks. Keeping up with these conversations is one of the balls that got dropped.)
Emotion does seem to color our perceptions. When we become emotionally attached or repulsed, the feelings we project on an object can become concrete, or at least hardened. So we do not project anything onto objects we do not care about? Hmmmm. Not sure about that, but it is a good way of approaching the idea.
I think you have the idea... I mean we're not going to invest any energy into projecting ourselves onto what we don't give a damn about. Anecdote time!

Long ago in a galaxy far, far away, or about twenty-five years ago in a private school in Springfield Gardens, Queens, I had a student named Steven. The lad had some significant emotional problems, but Mr. Clemsy's charm was irrepressible and he soon became my buddy. Followed me like a shadow, asked me a million and one questions, never acted out during lessons.

One day he came to school and avoided me like the plague. When approached he said, "You know what you did. Get away from me."

And that was our relationship until the end of the school year. His admiration had turned to hatred, deep and untouchable. The school psychologist told me that the dangerous, abusive Dad had come home.

Who else would his psyche have chosen? The assistant teacher? The janitor? If there was someone there who he actively despised, perhaps that person would have been the target... but it certainly wouldn't have been someone toward whom he was ambivalent.
What about the social influence exerted upon us? A great deal of research has shown that we are far less aware of how our attitudes are shaped than we would like to believe.
Oh absolutely. Nurture is not to be minimized. Fish, you might say, are accustomed to the water they swim in and can't conceive of there being any other.
Most of us would like to think we are not racist people, yet we may still have subtle biased reactions to a member of an out-group without even being aware of it. We may over react in an attempt to not be, or act, racist, but by doing so, are we not acting differently than we would in our in-group situation?
Again, absolutely. I once taught in the baddest neighborhood in New York City. The first day of school one year four of the biggest black boys in the school came walking into my room. My initial reaction was quite physical. My heart raced and the adrenaline pumped in a burst of fear.

Nicest kids in the world. I think of them fondly to this day and desperately hope they survived.
It is possible that we are socially encoded to be suspicious of a member of any out-group.
I think so... but I also think we're genetically wired for it. Makes sense. Suspicion enhances survival. It can be overcome through familiarity... but the impulse can be awakened and strengthened by pressing the right buttons. (See Rwanda, post invasion Baghdad, 1930's Germany, etc.)
...it seems that we are influenced in profound ways while not being actively involved in perception. Interesting, no?
Good reason to actively question ourselves, and view certainty with some suspicion.

The best of us actively engage doubt.
...research has found that there seem to be two different types of ways people encode visual stimuli (primarily). Internal and external encoders.
This makes sense to me. Id be curious as to demographic breakdowns.
The work I came across specifically claimed that mindfulness is more effective for external encoders,
Hmmm... that is interesting.
...being mindful means, while being in touch with our inner thoughts/feelings/motivations, not allowing those inner aspects to distort our view of the external world. It encourages us to be aware of our external situations, while attempting to not 'color' them from our own subjective viewpoint.
...Or to be aware of that coloring as I don't know how mindful one is being while also monitoring one's possible projection. Or can our experience of the external world be divorced at all from those inner aspect? All sense experience, at the end of the day, is subjective.

Good stuff, JJ.
Last edited by Clemsy on Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Evinnra »

Neoplato wrote:
… However, if mindfulness of the moment is the process of being aware of the innate energy spent on perception, then it seems mindfulness of the energy spent on dealing with emotions would be easily recognisable to even an internally encoding perception. …

Ok, I’m lost now. Was my definition of mindfulness satisfactory ? Gentlemen, from your answers I can’t figure out whether you have understood the meaning of my previous post or have I managed to confuse everyone on board again. To put it very simply, I attempted to argue that mindfulness has different types of benefits for the externally and internally encoding perceptions. Is it my definition of mindfulness that is off in your view, or is it my claim that you are not answering, or have I missed something in your answers?
I think that’s the most emoticons I’ve seen used at one time. :shock:
It was my attempt at a short doco on the reactions I had upon reading your responses … sorry :cry:
I was just throwing out there what I perceive when I hear the word “mindfulness”. (Disclaimer: My degree isn’t in Psychology. :( ) “Being aware” are the key words. It looks like our definitions are somewhat different given that you state “being aware of energy” where I think it’s more “being aware of the perception (reaction)”, and then I tack on, “and analyzing the cause of this perception (reaction)”.

I’m not sure that a typical person is aware of how much energy they are spending on emotions. I know people who would rather argue with me for a half hour about “why they have to do the work” when it only takes 10 minutes to do the work.
You are right, I don’t think the typical person carries an energy measuring devise to ascertain the exact amount of energy spent on perception. But perhaps you would agree that a typical person – even a small child – is quite capable of recognising its own state of panic or happiness as something desirable or repellent. From this I'd gather the typical person can recognise the amount of energy (not just the quality of a psychological state) this person spends on perception. That is what I intended to contribute to this topic in my last post on page 5.
“Different types of benefits for external and internal encoding”. Mmmm…It appears I’ve been talking about “external” encoding. I guess the notion of “internal encoding” and “ego” seems a bit odd to me. Maybe this is along the lines of the concept of “Humanism”.

I can see how “internal encoding” can help anyone to be a “Good Human” and the concept of ego and emotions remains intact. I wouldn’t see the need for “meta-cognition” either. However, I would think this behavior would have to “learned” based on belief structure on how “humans should act”.

However, I do see more of a benefit in external encoding. Instead of thinking “I’m angry, I’m not being a good human”, I think “I’m angry, what are the causes of my anger, and how can I eliminate this reaction to a situation” or “What is it about this external situation that is causing my anger?”

Here is where the proverbial doggy buried. I was NOT talking about who is a better living entity – the internally encoding (humane) or the externally encoding (objectivist) – I was merely pointing out that the act of mindfulness has different types of benefit for different types of perceptions.
I can either accept the fact that 5x4=10 or I can understand why 5x4=10. (I’m phishing here, I meant to write “10”) :)


And I think it was this point that Jufa answered – as I understood - that whether we rely on our own prejudices/emotions/memories of laws or whether we rely on a more objective looking ‘group mentality of 5x4=10’ we are still biased. Desperaux had a different mind from the rest of the mice but there was a 'preceding' reason for him being this way. That 'preceding' logos is eternal. :P

p.s. I marked the word 'preceding' because it is simply causally more efficient rather than previous in time to influence perception.
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Post by Evinnra »


It is no surprise you feel lost. You cannot get an honest response to what you are saying because:

All men came into this world backwards. And as they move from the womb, to infant, to pre-adolescent, to adolescent, to teenager, and manhood, they continue their backward journey on into the world. Every moment of man's conscious awareness is the backwards study and absorption of the revelations of other men's theories and dreams, concepts, opinions, and beliefs. Not daring to seek and take responsibility to find what is right and appropriate for their individual living, they indulge themselves in unproven assumptions, to them, with the hope of recapturing what belongs to others and make it their own.
Indeed, honesty from people is not easy to get in our times. (On a personal note, that is precisely what irks me the most. Lack of honesty forces me to refuse cooperation, which cooperation would be my elemental purpose in life.) We just have to make do with what is right here and right now. 8)
'A fish popped out of the water only to be recaptured again. It is as I, a slave to all yet free of everything.'
http://evinnra-evinnra.blogspot.com

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Post by Neoplato »

Evinnra Wrote:
From this I'd gather the typical person can recognise the amount of energy (not just the quality of a psychological state) this person spends on perception. That is what I intended to contribute to this topic in my last post on page 5.
Mmmm…Are you using the term “energy” to mean “amount of time spent thinking about perception”? Or maybe the amount of “focus” a person dedicates to perception? The term “energy” isn’t setting well in my mind. Sorry for running off on a tangent, I’ve been participating in an Eckhart Tolle meetup group and I guess I got a little too excited. :oops:
I was NOT talking about who is a better living entity – the internally encoding (humane) or the externally encoding (objectivist) – I was merely pointing out that the act of mindfulness has different types of benefit for different types of perceptions.
On the bright side, I guess we agree on “humane” and “objective” with respect to internal and external encoding. Yes, I totally agree with you that there are different types of benefits. However, (IMHO) it is my belief that the benefits of external encoding greatly outweigh the benefits of internal encoding. I guess you take objection to this, but that’s ok, I respect your point of view. I was going to make the case for this by using my 5x4=10 example.
that whether we rely on our own prejudices/emotions/memories of laws or whether we rely on a more objective looking ‘group mentality of 5x4=10’ we are still biased.
Yes, I agree, we are all still biased. (But I’m working very very very hard on not trying to be.) All I can do is continue down the path to obtain the “pure mind” and rid myself of all bias and negative emotions.
Desperaux had a different mind from the rest of the mice but there was a 'preceding' reason for him being this way. That 'preceding' logos is eternal.
Well, he was born with “his eyes open”. Many philosophers think the process takes about 40 years, and that’s only if the “conditions” are right. I also agree that “logos is eternal”, and I equate the notion of “pure mind” as “being one with the logos”.

Given that I was born into the “field of time”, all I can do is try.
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

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Post by jonsjourney »

Good reason to actively question ourselves, and view certainty with some suspicion.

The best of us actively engage doubt. -Clemsy
It seems that questioning is one of the relatively few things in this life which we can say is almost always a good thing. Unless you are getting burned at the local stake. :wink:
And that was our relationship until the end of the school year. His admiration had turned to hatred, deep and untouchable. The school psychologist told me that the dangerous, abusive Dad had come home. -Clemsy
So sad...and so many...and so many so much worse off.

I wonder what it is going to take to get our citizens participating in this society again. It seems to have really de-evolved (sorry, old fan of DEVO) in my lifetime. But I guess all people say and think that. When I look at what is going on in the school systems that I am familiar with, which is essentially 4 or 5, I am appalled.

There are many, many educators and other citizens trying to the best they can for our society everyday. But they can only do so much on their own. Too many of us are waiting for somebody else to do the job. Parents have become masters of this zero sum game. Shuck the responsibility and expect the world....and these are some of the 'good' parents...at least they aren't beating the child senseless or spending their afternoon lost in a cloud of Zoloft and Absolut blissfulness.

Pass the Ambien, I have an 8 O'Clock...
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

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