Lecture I.1.2 - The Individual in Oriental Mythology

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Lecture I.1.2 - The Individual in Oriental Mythology

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Lecture I.1.2 - The Individual in Oriental Mythology

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Post by Clemsy »

Ladies and gentlemen, this is a particularly difficult subject this evening since, as you know, there are at least three distinct Orients. There is the Orient of the Near East, the Levant, Arabian world, and the world of the Christian and Jewish traditions, and earlier perhaps the Persian Zoastrian religion, are the distinguished representatives. There is the world of India, with Hinduism, Jainism, and Buddhism, as its typical religious examples. And there is the world of the Far East, which includes those two quite different worlds of China and Japan. Furthermore the subject is somewhat difficult because, at least as I see the problem, the idea of the individual as we understand it in the European Western world, does not exist in any of these. ~Joseph Campbell, from The Individual in Oriental Mythology
Great opening, no? Provocative in that in one phrase, "does not exist in any of these," Campbell identifies a profound distinction between how one half of the world, containing more than half of the world's population, views the individual's place in society as compared to the view of the other half.

In this lecture, Campbell illustrates the difference, not only between the East and the West's individualism, but the difference between each of those Oriental spheres.

One implication that occurs to me is that the greatest cultural impact on the world, possibly the greatest impact of any kind at any time, comes from one of those Oriental worlds: the Levant. Ironically, Christianity is viewed as a Western religion, however its impulse is purely Levantine, not European and it irrevocably changed the course of European history in a wave that washed across the Atlantic to the Americas.

And it is another of the Levantine traditions, Islam, in its extreme form, that is shaking the world today from New York to Bali to Mumbai. When one brings the Israeli-Palestinian conflict into the mix, not only have we involved all three Levantine traditions but we have tracked their impact from the West across each of the three Oriental spheres Campbell mentions.

As Campbell says of the Levant in track 9 of the lecture:
... In the older system of the great mathematics of the cosmos, God as I say is simply the executive, and you have the great natural laws which govern everything. But when you have a God who determines what the laws are to be, who says let it be so and so, and it is so and so, you have a stress on the personality that doesn't exist on the other side. Now this puts the Levantine Orient into a rather close relationship to the individualism of the West that I have been talking about, however, there is a big distinction to be made. In the Levant, the stress is always on obeying. The idea is that this God has given a revelation which is encompassed in a book in a statement. ...There is a book, there is a revealed truth, and man does not quibble with that. Man finds out what it says, and the one who does quibble with that is by definition an evil person, a person who has lost touch with the truth, and is an outcast. Whole races, whole worlds can fall away. In fact, the usual pattern in the Near East is that there is one folk that has received the word, or one tradition, and this is the true tradition. In the Levant, the typical hero is not the individual, nor is it the reincarnating monad. It is the folk, or church that carries the truth. The individual is as it were, an organ of that organism. The Christian is one with all Christians in the organism of Christ, of the Church. And the Hebrew community, you have the seed of Abraham and the Chosen People who will be vindicated at the end of time, and the individual’s relationship to the God is through the community, not a personal one.
(Italics mine.)

Why? What makes this particular mindset so successful? So dominant?

Thoughts?
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

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Post by Ercan Arisoy »

This reminds me first of all the question of one forbidden thing. Hero's journey often starts the moment he disobeys. Otherwise, there's no challenge, no individuation, no pain and no gain :)
Secondly, the Levant and Levantine sense of collectivity reminds me the Veil of Isis. There might be another kind of individuation that 'we' cannot perceive in Western terms.
That's so esoteric that people never talk about. What can be stronger than a secret passed on and on through generations? :twisted:

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Post by Ercan Arisoy »

Ercan Arisoy wrote:Secondly, the Levant and Levantine sense of collectivity reminds me the Veil of Isis. There might be another kind of individuation that 'we' cannot perceive in Western terms.
That's so esoteric that people never talk about. What can be stronger than a secret passed on and on through generations? :twisted:
The Orphic approach to Nature vis-a-vis the Promethean approach, that's from Pierre Hadot.

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Post by Ercan Arisoy »

Again quoting Pierre Hadot,
'Nature wraps herself in myths and Being unveils as it veils itself'

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Post by CarmelaBear »

Clemsy said:
Campbell identifies a profound distinction between how one half of the world, containing more than half of the world's population, views the individual's place in society as compared to the view of the other half.

As Campbell says of the Levant in track 9 of the lecture:
... In the older system of the great mathematics of the cosmos, God as I say is simply the executive, and you have the great natural laws which govern everything. But when you have a God who determines what the laws are to be, who says let it be so and so, and it is so and so, you have a stress on the personality that doesn't exist on the other side. Now this puts the Levantine Orient into a rather close relationship to the individualism of the West that I have been talking about, however, there is a big distinction to be made. In the Levant, the stress is always on obeying.,,,,and the individual’s relationship to the God is through the community, not a personal one.


Why? What makes this particular mindset so successful? So dominant?

Thoughts?

Continued on the next post .....
Last edited by CarmelaBear on Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene

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Post by CarmelaBear »

When natural disaster hit China, the school children organized trainloads of volunteers who, on their own youthful initiative, travelled to the places hardest hit, and helped the communities and the individuals with the work of survival.

That did not occur in the aftermath of Katrina. You saw celebrities and corporations and adults with various charitable missions and people from their hometowns and states, but nothing as massive and well-organized by young people as their own idea. Our young people do not think in terms of community.

We thrive on competition and a kind of diversity that seems to defy all commonality, community, compromise, and consensus.

There is something eminently pragmatic about working together as a team, prioritizing our common ground ideals and objectives.

What East and West can do is form a partnership that refuses to negate the glory of the individual, with a consciousness contained within one body and identified by one name, while recognizing our compassionate relationship with the whole that provides us all with acceptance and expects a valuable contribution from each of us.

There is a top-down governance that can get things done with dispatch. There is a down-up governance that can leap frog both limitations and responsibility. The marriage of the two can produce a pragmatic form of progress. It's neither conservative nor liberal, neither young nor old, neither rich nor poor, etc. It can be a collective will that allows the individual to be actualized and fulfilled and capable of creating bliss.
Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene

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Post by Clemsy »

What East and West can do is form a partnership that refuses to negate the glory of the individual, with a consciousness contained within one body and identified by one name, while recognizing our compassionate relationship with the whole that provides us all with acceptance and expects a valuable contribution from each of us.
Carmela this is very well said. The problem as I see it is that the Levantine collective mindset reflexively considers individualism as reprehensible. The automatic assumption is that without the group parameters, people will succumb to the primal beast: rape, pillage, read Joseph Campbell, etc.

You see this in rhetoric that automatically equates homosexuality with pederasty and bestiality. You know, once we let that horse out of the barn you better lock up your sheep!

But that's not individualism. That's infantilism. The idea that one can be a mature adult isn't a believable option: without the restraints, people will just sink right down to their lower chakras.

However, it takes a communal effort to promote the mindset. Enlightened Individualism benefits the community, not just the self.

Isn't this the theme of Odysseus' journey and the Grail quest?
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

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Post by CarmelaBear »

Clemsy wrote: The idea that one can be a mature adult isn't a believable option: without the restraints, people will just sink right down to their lower chakras.

However, it takes a communal effort to promote the mindset. Enlightened Individualism benefits the community, not just the self.

Isn't this the theme of Odysseus' journey and the Grail quest?
The Hero's Journey is what makes us proud to be human, knowing that the very existence of all the other species are dependent on us to restrain ourselves from destroying the earth in our headlong quest for individual acquisition.

There is an ethic that is taught by the collective, but internalized by the individual, who decides how it should be expressed, and is allowed to make mistakes along the way.

As you know, I'm very hard on the middle class concept of Rule of Law, which gives the collective the right and duty to perpetuate some of the greatest cruelties against the individual transgressor ,as if that kind of violence is simply a God-given right to control the wayward and mete out the hurts and killings supposedly deserved by those who were unfortunate enough to disobey the Almighty Law. It is an illusion of order of the sort that comes from making one's desk neat as the mind spins around assault rifles.

There is nothing more Levantine than a law that creates a new, invisible form of slavery behind bars, and removes individuals from the community as if there were The Good (with money and family and friends) and The Bad (who are Losers and deserve to be ostracized, hurt, and maybe, killed). As the man said, "They know not what they do."

There is a journey. There is a quest. Each path is within its own dimension, and it is connected to the whole.

To us, it's so obvious, because we've spent so many hours immersed in this, and I wonder how this butterfly's wing will cause a tsunami of enlightenment in time for the next big global crisis. :shock:
Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene

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Post by David_Kudler »

CarmelaBear wrote:When natural disaster hit China, the school children organized trainloads of volunteers who, on their own youthful initiative, travelled to the places hardest hit, and helped the communities and the individuals with the work of survival.

That did not occur in the aftermath of Katrina. You saw celebrities and corporations and adults with various charitable missions and people from their hometowns and states, but nothing as massive and well-organized by young people as their own idea. Our young people do not think in terms of community.
Just to moderate this statement a bit, Carmela, I will point out that most of the schools in where I live, including those which my daughters attended and the high school at which my wife teaches, had huge relief drives immediately after Katrina and Rita hit. My wife's school sent a group of teachers and students (through Habitat for Humanity) that helped build housing in the storm-ravaged Gulf Coast that spring, and has continued to send one every year since. And that's just what I happen to know about.

That doesn't contradict your point, I know, but it is worth noting that individualism and community service are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
David Kudler<br>Publications<br>Joseph Campbell Foundation<br>publications at jcf dot org

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Post by Clemsy »

Absolutely, David. Case in point is New York on and after 9/11.

I stress the point that individualism is neither narcissism nor hedonism, but our heritage disparages the idea as exactly that. Unfortunately, in the absence of a social structure that enhances the individual and encourages individuation, the result can be precisely those things. The excesses of the 60's revolution justifies, to many, the dismissal of the whole generation.

The Bush years, with its patriarchal philosophy of the Great White Father, further reinforced a state of eternal childhood where the 'adults' are firmly in charge, so relax and don't question. It is no coincidence that Christian Conservatism was firmly embraced and, I believe, cynically used to maintain that parent-child relationship.

Obama's rhetoric has been the exact opposite. One is encouraged.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

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Post by CarmelaBear »

So much of what I say is fraught with judgment. It's hard not to be constantly wagging fingers and contradicting myself as I slip slide through the great wonderland of Good and Bad according to God or Science or the Individual or whatever.

It's hard to keep track of the Big Ideas. That's why I read Campbell. Wow :!: , was he organized! When in doubt, draw a circle with a space in it, and explain how it's just like whatever you're discussing. That's why they call us "artists".

I'm totally in agreement with everything all of you goofy gurus are saying,

AND I'm glad Bobby Jindal is not president.
Last edited by CarmelaBear on Sat May 30, 2009 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene

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Post by jufa »

In the Levant, the typical hero is not the individual, nor is it the reincarnating monad. It is the folk, or church that carries the truth. The individual is as it were, an organ of that organism. The Christian is one with all Christians in the organism of Christ, of the Church. And the Hebrew community, you have the seed of Abraham and the Chosen People who will be vindicated at the end of time, and the individual’s relationship to the God is through the community, not a personal one.
I find what is stated here to be somewhat odd when Campbell always stress that if one does not find the reality of their life while consciously aware, poof, they have blew it.

I also find that for a collective mentality to be the order of truth, then it has to serve definitively in exactness of thoughts received, analyzed, projected, imaged, and finalized in that exactness collectively. Such is not possible because absolutes are not possible in collective, nor individual thinking.

This also applies to God, Goddesses. What God is being referred to by Campbell?
Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - jufa
http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com

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Post by Clemsy »

I'm totally in agreement with everything all of you goofy gurus are saying,
Goofy? Guilty!
Guru? Awe, go on with you... (Picture Clemsy, the reluctant guru, robes flowing, as he runs down the street being chased by starry eyed followers. Reminds me of a scene from Life of Brian.)
AND I'm glad Bobby Jindal is not president.

Don't get me started. Just when it seems a modicum of sanity has visited America, he walks out in front of a camera, threatening the country with yet one more rabbit hole. :roll:

The parallels between this Levantine mindset and what passes for political/economic conservatism is interesting. Consider the recent criticism by Republican politicians of Rush Limbaugh, and the instant backlash forcing apologies. They dared venture outside the fold and were instantly threatened with excommunication.

Not to drag this into a political discussion, but the Levantine mindset is much more ingrained in American culture than the European. I have my suspicions as to why.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

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Post by jonsjourney »

In the Eddas of the medieval Germanic peoples, the world comes into being and then goes out of being, and throughout India and the Far East this is so. Now when the world does that, when you have this pattern of eternal recurrence, there is nothing you or I can do to change the situation. Individual initiative is of no use whatsoever. It has no value whatsoever. It is an intrusion upon the scene. Just as the sun rises on schedule, and sets on schedule, as the moon waxes and wanes, as the plants grow and die, so must you live.
I cannot help (sorry folks, it is the Psychologist/Philosopher in me) but think that our individualistic tendencies grew out of possession seeking/materialism. It is so taboo to speak in negative terms about the problems of capitalist consumerism here in the West, but all we need to do is look around a minute and see where we are (and in fact, have been for many more years than the current pundits would admit). What is the cost of this overly individualistic social philosophy?

Medical doctors are prescribing antidepressants at a ridiculous rate. Why? Is life so tough? Is it so tough to drive in your car, sleep in your bed and eat your pre-packaged foodstuff after an evening with American Idol? It seems pretty tame compared to the pure survival instincts needed for early hominids. I mean really! Yet we (the collective 'we') seem so unhappy. Is it possible that we have removed ourselves from the circle of life to such an extent that we are wandering lost in the wilderness? And still worse...the benefit of the vision acquired on the journey has been lost as well?

Many find happiness. Some teach. Some do social work. Some create...etc. There are many ways to follow ones bliss, if one is open to the positives and negatives of the journey. But I wonder if many are really prepared for the hardship of the pursuit of bliss. Think back to the idealized notions of the 1960's communal movements. They all failed. They failed because sacrifice is hard when you are watching those around you buy televisions, boats and summer cottages.

It is sometimes hard to recognize where we are failing. It is especially hard when this community of Campbellites are so eager to learn and discover deeper meaning in our lives, after all, everyone tends to think that they have the answer...even if it is saying that you do not have the answer!!! I like to go out sometimes and just watch people at coffee shops or at the mall. I try to observe their posture or whether they smile or are laughing as they interact. So many people seem to have the whole world pushing them down. So many seem like zombies. We are instantly connected to the entire world at every moment, and yet so many have no idea what the person right next to them is doing. I wonder if our individualism causes us to feel like it is somehow wrong to lean on each other...the world would not be so heavy if we all held our hands up.

This all sounds gloomy, I am sorry for that. I personally find great pleasure in this life. The pain, the pleasure and my role in the dance give me what I need to be happy, blissful. But I have to recognize that there seems to be a significant growing disconnect from our organismic relationship to this world. There is a reason why circular symbols dominate mythology, we are all a part of this dance, whether we want to see it or not. Perhaps it is a sort of denial that has created this sense of disconnect. Most of our Western religious systems have placed man's domain over the Earth and its inhabitants, rather than along side them.

What is also of great concern, geopolitically, is the individualization of China which is happening right now. What will this mean for our future world when one of the largest collectivist cultures disappears? Role reversal?
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