Lecture I.2.1 - The Thresholds of Mythology

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Lecture I.2.1 - The Thresholds of Mythology

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Lecture I.2.1 - The Thresholds of Mythology

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Post by Martin_Weyers »

From Lecture I.2.1 - The Thresholds of Mythology:
Sankaracharya, the great saint of the Ninth Century, declared that “a man who is released is like a burnt string that looks like a string, but if you blow on it there is nothing there.” These saints wandering around look like human beings, but there is nobody there. There is no sense of an individual in that body. When he goes into the forest he gives up his virtue, he gives up his dharma, he gives up his family and everything. And now he is going to just wait for the body, as they say, to drop off. This is the basic Oriental idea.
I’m wondering what this means for those of us, who are trying to learn from Buddhism or other Oriental traditions. Most of us supposedly learn meditation and other spiritual practices, to become a “euphonic string”, rather than a burnt one.

Is Campbell delivering here a caricature (rather than illumination) of an Oriental ideal? Or does released person mean to be some kind of a Zombie? Is release desirable at all for Western people? Do we have to refuse or transform the idea of release? What are your experiences?
Works of art are indeed always products of having been in danger, of having gone to the very end in an experience, to where man can go no further. -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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Post by noman »

A Buddhist text also says, ‘unless you are like a man with his hair on fire who is looking for a pond to jump in, don’t start on this journey.’ The ‘release’ that is referred to as a burnt string is for just the most very dedicated souls. I like to compare the yogi’s quest to the artist. Few people will spend their entire lives composing music, writing poetry, or creating paintings and sculptures. But that doesn’t mean that commoners can’t partake in such activity – and occasionally reach a certain level of competence. I’ve heard that Winston Churchill’s paintings hang in art museums. Who does this guy think he is? A good soldier. A first rate politician. An excellent writer and historian. But then, he decides to paint like he means it.

Analogously, people take part in the spiritual quest without going to the extreme of ego destruction that a serious yogi might achieve. Campbell said it is much harder for a Westerner to even attempt the task of ego destruction. For an Easterner, he says, it’s like tapping on a Christmas tree ornament orb – tap, tap, tap… and the ego breaks. But for Westerners it’s a matter of tapping on this thing for twenty years and nothing is happening. It’s especially curious to me that Eastern Religions were embraced in the 60s and 70s by young Westerners that would later be described as the ‘me’ generation. Backlash? I don’t know. But I think everyone should at least be exposed to what mystics East and West try to achieve. There seems to be a ‘spiritual illiteracy’ or just a lack of appreciation among the general public. In the same way that most of us don’t have a clue as to what the best creative artists are doing. Even in our mass-info society, these disciplines maintain a certain degree of esotericism.

aum shanti

- NoMan

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Post by Martin_Weyers »

Noman,

painting on rainy sunday afternoons is just fine; And meditating on rainy sunday afternoons is fine too. The problem begins, when the dilettante is seeking public attention or a teaching position.

I started meditation only six months ago, and with a daily practize only a few days ago. (Maybe time is ripe now for me to become a guru? :wink: )

I have been learning from a variety of teachers from different Tibetan traditions. None of them teaches smashing ego. Maybe this was one of the major misunderstandings when Eastern traditions came to the West?
Works of art are indeed always products of having been in danger, of having gone to the very end in an experience, to where man can go no further. -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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Post by Cindy B. »

For any interested, the differences between Western and Eastern conceptualizations of the ego has also come up in this thread: http://www.jcf.org/new/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4050

Cindy
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by noman »

Martin,

The East is a big place. And there are thousands of years of traditions to choose from. But what I think we get in the West is what Hindu commentator Agehananda Bharati called ‘the pizza effect.’ He said the Italians had some sort of baked bread that Americans made into the pizza we know and love. Then the Italians acquired a taste for the American version. Similarly, Agehananda Bharati says, elements of Hindu culture, such as yoga, bhakti, gurus, some Hindu teachings, dance and music have been exported to the West, due largely to the Hindu Renaissance, where they have gained great popularity and then gained popularity among urban Hindus in India as a consequence.

But I don’t think there is a true or correct way of Eastern religions anymore than there is a correct way to make pizza. Preferences prevail in any climate. I thought it was ironic when I read the Bhagavad-Gita, knowing it was a favorite of Mahatma Gandhi, the prince of peace, and coming to realize for all its wisdom, that war is condoned and encouraged by the deity Krishna.

There is an irony in the concept of meditation, to better one’s self, to become selfless. But I see the attempt as a great value to Westerners without worrying about what the ‘authentic’ experience is suppose to be.

* * * * * * *

From Jung in the Weeds thread:
The ego does not “disappear” during the course of personality development and individuation—it grows ever more in its functioning and influence as one approaches wholeness. “Assimilation” refers to the integration of previously unconscious contents and processes into conscious awareness. We’re “making the unconscious conscious” and expanding consciousness, right? For individuation to occur, the ego as the center of consciousness has a significant role to play, and particularly with its link to Self as the archetype of wholeness, over time—a looong time—more and more of the functions of Self as the regulator of all psychic functioning become assimilated with the conscious functioning of the ego. Yet before one ever gets this far along in the individuation process, the ego grows in strength and functioning as it deals with these pesky details—persona, shadow, anima or animus. Perhaps it will help if I remind you again that to understand Jung or any other Western psychology; you must temporarily set aside the Eastern conceptualization of ego.

http://www.jcf.org/new/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4050

- Cindy
Cindy,

I admire your command of all things Jungian.

Ego, self, persona, shadow, anima, animus, integration, assimilation, unconscious, archetype, wholeness, expanding consciousness, and regulating psychic functioning. Jung and company moved into uncharted waters with their coining and definitions of these words and phrases. And I don’t mean to dismiss it as creative play. I’ve enjoyed reading Jung almost as much as Campbell. Jung was attempting to describe phenomenon and processes that are intangible. But I look at some of these definitions and say, okay, the shadow used to be represented by the devil. The anima used to be represented by a goddess – or an angel, the ego by the soul, the persona by the trickster. The difference of course is that these deities are said to be ‘out there’ somewhere in metaphysical realm - whereas these characterizations of the psyche are said to be within.
Heaven, hell, the mythological age, Olympus and all the other habitations of the gods are interpreted by psychoanalysis as symbols of the unconscious. The key to the modern systems of psychological interpretation therefore is this: the metaphysical realm = the unconscious. Correspondingly, the key to open the door the other way is the same equation in reverse: the unconscious = the metaphysical realm. (p222)

- Hero with a Thousand Faces, Joseph Campbell, 1949

Jung knew what he was doing. He was translating the mythological language into an abstract universal language for the purposes of modern psychology. I wonder if the ‘process of individuation’ would seem just as bizarre to an Easterner as metaphorically ‘becoming a burnt string’ is to us. My belief is that human beings are similar enough in their biology and cultural experience that the paths to enlightenment run parallel to each other. I can’t imagine the quest between and enlightened person from East and West being so terribly different that they could not understand or appreciate each other. But things do get twisted in translation and in practice. Is Eastern meditation the best way for a Westerner? I look at it in the same as physical exercise. People like to ask what the best exercise is. I always say that the best exercise is the one that you DO.

O sacrum Cor Jesu, salutis nostrae sitientissimum.
[O sacred heart of Jesus, thirsting for our salvation.]

Now if only I would practice what I preach. :?

- NoMan

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Post by jd101 »

Hi Martin,

I’ll take a crack at your questions. First, I am very thankful to Clemsy or whoever is transcribing these audio lectures. The old CD’s are some of my favorite JC materials and having them in written form is so appreciated by me.

One of the basic problems I face in trying to follow and understand Campbell’s portrayal of the key concepts of Eastern Philosophy is similar to your question of whether this description is a caricature, namely, is Campbell giving us an accurate generalization of a rather complicated set of Hindu philosophies.

Additionally, (and a point that I have been studying for quite some time now) is the question of does the culture that Campbell portray actually exist today, (50 or 60) years since he developed and presented his ideas, or have the effects of globalization so altered the Indian culture that this old portrayal is in memory and philosophy only? I also like to consider whether the idea is merely a philosophical or intellectual idea, or one that is alive(mythic) and impacts the psyche of the people.

As a primer for those not familiar, the key concepts discussed here are the Vedic ideas of Moksha, and the related ideas of the four stages of life, or Ashramas. Thus, the quote offered by Martin is referencing more a Hindu than Buddhist view of life.

Moksha which variously means self-realization, transcendence, salvation, a release from this world, has been traditionally view by Hindus as the goal of human life. The idea of Moksha is intimately linked with the Indian conviction in the existence of another, ‘higher’ level of reality beyond the empirical reality of our world. This ultimate reality is beyond conceptual thought and mind. A result of this belief is that intellectual thought and the pursuits of naturalistic science have traditionally held a lower status in the Indian culture than in the West.

From Wiki we read:
“An Ashrama (āśrama) in Hinduism is one of four stages in an age-based social system as laid out in the Manu Smrti and later Classical Sanskrit texts. The concept of Ashramas has gone into disuse, and nowadays few Hindus follow it.”


The 4th stage is that of sannyas, withdrawing from the world, a time of complete dedication to spiritual pursuits, the seeking of Moksha and practicing meditation.

The eminent Indian psychoanalyst Sudhir Kakar illuminates the Indian psyche quite poetically in “The Indians, Portrait of a People”, and when speaking of Moksha he writes:
“To most Indians, life is a combination of the tragic and the romantic. It is tragic in so far as they see human experience pervaded by ambiguities and uncertainties where man has little choice but to bear the burden of unanswerable questions, inescapable conflicts and incomprehensible afflictions of fate. But superimposed on the tragic, the Indian vision of moksha offers a romantic quest. The new journey is a search, and the seeker, if he withstands the perils of the road, will be rewarded by exaltation beyond normal human experience. The belief in the existence of an ‘ultimate reality’, this nostalgia of the Indian soul, is a beacon of ‘higher feeling’ in the lives of most Indians, cutting across class and caste distinctions, bridging the distance between rural and urban, between the illiterate and the educated, between the rich and the poor…there are various cultural consequences of this belief. One of these is the pervasive presence of hope, even in the most dismal of life circumstances…Another consequence of the spiritual orientation is the average Indian’s fascination with and respect for the occult and its practitioners.

Psychologically, perhaps the most important consequence of the Hindu spiritual orientation is the divinity immanent within each human being, the feeling of self-worth that comes from a pre-conscious conviction of one’s metaphysical significance. However socially demeaned or economically irrelevant a person may be in day-to-day life, the feeling of being central to the universe and not banished to its remote extremities, of being connected equally with everyone else to the Urgrund of human existence, quietly nourishes the individual’s self-esteem and stands as a bulwark against despair and rage at life’s inequities.”
One of the things I love about Kakar is his ability to render quite realistic descriptions of actual Indian life and psychology, apart from arid philosophical points.


As for Martin’s question of release being desirable for Westerners, I like Campbell’s distinction between Eastern Religion’s focus on Identity versus the Western Religious goal of establishing a relationship. In my view those are two very different things, and are ultimately not compatible.

I have observed many Westerners who grew up in ‘wasteland’ childhoods lacking myths to give them primal connections and experiences of the ‘awe of existence’ of the universe at some point turning to Eastern meditations seeking relief. The Western psyche has some ego structures very different from those in the East as noman points out, and I commonly see people latch on to gurus thinking something outside of themselves is going to ‘save’ them.

Regarding zombies, I recall JC’s lecture on the inhabitants of the city of UR, who all participated in a mass suicide associated with the precession of the King and Court. The question there arose, “what does the word ‘individual’ mean in such a context”, and certainly we in the West have different notions about what an individual is, along with our supposed rights and responsibilities.

It is intriguing to me to recognize that there are in fact differences in the role of the individual in India and the West and these childhood experiences definitely shape our concepts and experiences of identity in different ways.
john

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Post by Martin_Weyers »

Great observations here, by everyone!

Noman, my favourite pizza is with oriental dough, and occidental topping.

John, thanks for your feedback on The Collected Lectures of Joseph Campbell! The lectures have been transcribed by David Kudler. The work on the transcripts has been running him so hard that he's currently trying to escape to Europe for some while. He will certainly be delighted by your laudation.

Thanks also for the clarification about Hinduism and moksha. I think Campbell is committing one of his notorious generalizations 8) here, when he is saying ...
These saints wandering around look like human beings, but there is nobody there. There is no sense of an individual in that body. When he goes into the forest he gives up his virtue, he gives up his dharma, he gives up his family and everything. And now he is going to just wait for the body, as they say, to drop off. This is the basic Oriental idea.
Works of art are indeed always products of having been in danger, of having gone to the very end in an experience, to where man can go no further. -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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Post by Ercan2121 »

Martin and all others,

As a student of esotericism, I've found what's told in this passage strictly exoteric (Go to forest, get rid of your daily routine and so on). I don't think it's any different than saying 'all good christians go to church each and every sunday'.
It sounds like the formal statement of a religious authority, so superficial that you cannot help asking: so what?
Yet, there should be a reason to include such a passage into the lecture :roll:
that's what I wonder.

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Post by Ercan2121 »

Let me also share a little about my own honest and tentatively 'Western' understanding of what we can grasp from South Asian spiritual traditions.

(Frankly, from leading thinkers of the East and not necessarily from the overall values of Eastern societies. Au fond, this is no different than reading Thomas Mann without any particular interest for European values of that period. We didn't go to Southern Asia to become part of those societies; we just followed our gurus and visited Taj Mahal :-)

The first thing I heard about Yoga was that the earliest traces go back to Indus Valley Civilization and that some postures are older than any known religion. I'd assume the same for breathing exercises and meditation techniques as well, without forgetting vegetarianism and abstinence from some other things.

(For me this was a decisive factor. Because I needed what's rare or unavailable
in the West but I wasn't willing to get lost in exotic myths or rituals. I needed what's essential.)


At the start, my intention was to develop a better awareness about my body and I can say that I had satisfactory results in matters of relaxation and coordination between my intellect and other centres of my body.

(I was aware that Yoga's not something like Aerobics or Pilates. But I also felt that it wasn't about belief . I needed simplicity.)

It's great to start the day with a couple of asanas and some meditation but I'm not relating this with any cultural standpoint.

(I believe in reincarnation but I still feel like a student of Western esoterism and I cannot imagine any spiritual life without reasonable effort to follow character ethics as I learned from American thinkers.)

In New York City, Yoga was instructed like a technique for exploring what's beyond ordinary mythical thinking and I'm well convinced that it's one of the most accurate ways to address Yoga, exactly like Joseph Campbell does in countless places: Verbatim experience of what our thinking system cannot process.

(Here one can ask 'for what?' One answer can be for achieving individuation and for outgrowing one's myths. Isn't this the duty or the virtue of each and everyone?)

PS_I just hope that I have tolerably summarised my view on this topic in a truthful manner without becoming rude or partial. Please forgive if you feel offended.

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Post by Neoplato »

Hi Everyone, I'm going to go back to Martin's orginal question.
Is Campbell delivering here a caricature (rather than illumination) of an Oriental ideal? Or does released person mean to be some kind of a Zombie? Is release desirable at all for Western people? Do we have to refuse or transform the idea of release? What are your experiences?
From watching and reading Campbell, it doesn't come across as a caricature for me. The tone in is voice, his non-verbal expressions, his writing style....to me he's painting a portrait.

I think westerners believe these people are zombies or "pod people". However, the big difference is that a "zombie" has no mind (or in the case of some people I know can't "think") and are typically controlled; an "awakened" individual is fully aware of their mind, thoughts and situations. Sort of like a puppet without strings and a "real live boy".

From my experience, I believe release is only desirable by those wishing to seek it.
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

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Post by jonsjourney »

I think that Joe was doing what Joe does best. He was providing us with interesting and relevant metaphors that provided good illustrations for the points he was trying to drive home. It is probable that he was reiterating the stories that he liked and spoke to him. Is this not human nature? Would any one of us attempt to explain something in depth that we did not understand well, or had not touched us in some deep way?

As I have read Eastern views, I have definitely come to understand that there is a "Western version" put forth that aids us in incorporating concepts which are often far off the mark of what we would consider to be "normal". That being said, the concepts seem easier to grasp once one has gone through a process of personal exploration of different belief systems and then on to science.

What seems difficult for many in the West is the concept of impermanence. This seems to be tougher for most of the folks I have talked to than the idea of interconnectedness. The idea of a soul that will live on after we are dead is very much ingrained into our concept of existence. Some see the casting off of such a belief as being equivalent to nihilism or narcissism...without a higher power to govern the fate of our permanent soul, what incentive do I have to live "right"?

As far as release goes, I see it as the release of judgments based on prior experience. To be released from the bonds of suffering, we must learn to perceive the "suchness" of an object, rather than the false perception of an object colored by our conditioning and genetic heritage. Easier said than done, no?
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

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Post by noman »

The eminent Indian psychoanalyst Sudhir Kakar illuminates the Indian psyche quite poetically in “The Indians, Portrait of a People”,

- Jd101
Great quote by Sudhir Kakar. I can see he is a popular author on the Indian religion, psychology, and sociology. I haven’t read him but this 2001 book looks like a great introduction:

The Essential Writings, Sudhir Kakar, 2001
…is Campbell giving us an accurate generalization of a rather complicated set of Hindu philosophies.

-jd101
As you know, Campbell would pick and chose among all the world’s religions and mythology. He could also pick among the myriad practices of India over a three thousand year period. The tapestry of India religions doesn’t lend itself to broad generalizations. I think is was E. F. Forester who said that a person can study India for years, and still be unprepared for the impact of Indian culture upon visiting India for the first time. Joseph Campbell provides a great example. He was very well acquainted with India through books. But if you read his Indian Journal Baksheesh and Brahman you’ll know he was seriously perplexed and sometimes frustrated trying to reconcile what he had learned all of his life about India with what he experienced on his visit there as a fifty year old professor who had been teaching westerners about Indian art, history, and religion.

My answer to your question quoted above is that generalizations just don’t work for India and what we call Hinduism. They work, to a degree, but it’s not like characterizing the countries of America, Germany, or Japan – or like characterizing Judaism, Christianity, or Islam.

- NoMan

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Post by Ercan2121 »

Really interesting; I just want to add the following;
In the past, it was possible to study Indology the way
Campbell did; namely in European style -without
slightest reference to modern languages and culture.

I also studied Indology but quite differently -with
visiting professors from India and without losing
touch with purely Indian understanding of myths,
artworks and religions. I think this makes a great
difference. Thanks.

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