Lecture I.1.4 - New Horizons

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Lecture I.1.4 - New Horizons

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Lecture I.1.4 - New Horizons

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Last edited by Clemsy on Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Martin_Weyers »

From Lecture I.1.4 - New Horizons:
And you know how Dante developed this image in the Divine Comedy, in perfect harmony with the ideas of his time: when Satan had been flung out of heaven for his disobedience and pride, he came like a great flaming comet, Lucifer, and struck the earth and drove right through to the center, and that area that he struck, that great trench to the center, is Hell. And what was driven forth the other side is the Mountain of Purgatory. And it was supposed that the whole Southern hemisphere was an ocean with the Mountain of Purgatory, what now would be called the South Pole. And on the summit of this Mountain of Purgatory was Paradise, the Garden from which the four rivers flow in the four directions.

Well now it is a curious fact, but when Columbus set sail for the lands beyond the surrounding ocean, he had the image of Dante's world in mind, and he writes of this in his journal. And when he reached the main land, or the Islands of the Indies, he turned southward and he reached the shore; I think this was on his third voyage of South America. And as he was passing between Trinidad and the shore of South America, he noticed that the quantity of fresh water mixed with the salt was simply enormous. The River Oronoco, this enormous river such as no European had ever seen, was pouring great quantities of fresh water into the ocean, and Columbus thought that this must have been one of the four rivers of Paradise coming from the Mountain of Paradise in the Southern hemisphere. And he noticed when his boat sailed northward, that it went more swiftly than it had gone when it was sailing southward, and he said "This is because we were coasting downhill from this promontory of the Great Mountain."

St. Thomas Aquinas writing of Paradise in the 13th Century said "The reason people have not found Paradise is that it is beyond the Great Seas, or beyond the Great Mountains, and people haven't come to it yet.”

It was literally thought that the notion of the earth in the Bible was literally true.

Some fifty years after Columbus' shattering, or beginning to shatter, of the mythological geography of the Middle Ages, Copernicus published his paper on the heliocentric universe, placing not the earth, but the Sun in the center of the universe.
I found this image really touching: Columbus passing the Orinoco estuary, thinking he is sailing one of the four rivers of Paradise as depictured by Dante. Usually we use to smile about people like Columbus – a bold hero with the woldview of a child –, while we applaud to Campbell when he’s pointing to myth as metaphor rather than fact.

But: Can there be an experience as intense as experiencing myth as a fact?

Imagine, you were on a round-the-world-trip, the boat full of JCF associates, the kind of people you can find here on the boards. One day we would pass the Orinoco flow.

Surely we would have a great time and some interesting conversation: Maybe someone would start talking about the river as a symbol for life; The next one would share his knowledge about the cosmos in the Divine Comedy.

... and still it would be just an exchange of knowledge and opinions.

Surely there would be a storytelling evening.

... and still it would be just stories: Something that has been made up by someone.

Someone else may point to the transcendent mystery within us.

... and yet we can’t be sure that the idea of transcendence is not simply a projection of the psyche, like Jahwe.

While I don’t have faith in any religious ideas, I appreciate the arts as a beautiful and less violent substitute for religion. At the same time I envy Columbus for his stunning experience, even if based on a misapprehension.

From Lecture I.1.4 - New Horizons:
Dante in his analytical work The Convito said that there are two ways of regarding the literal aspect of a mythological image: one is the way of the poet, and the other is the way of the theologian.

The poet sees the literal story as a beautiful fiction through which a truth is communicated allegorically.

The theologian sees the story as a fact through which a truth is communicated literally.

Both of them point to a superior truth through the story, but for one the story must be true-- he likes true story magazines; the theologians like true story magazines. And artists like fiction.

My own personal definition of mythology, of religion, is religion is a popular misunderstanding of poetry.

Well now the poetry works, and so does the True Story magazine.
Today we have to find comfort in arts, stories and symbols – and with a little help from the Joes on our shelves we can experience even a pop song as something with mythological depth ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfVJ11GXzXQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FV5jNvDnxc
from Bissau to Pilau - in the shade of Avalon,
from Fiji to Tiree and the Isles of Ebony,
from Peru to Cebu feel the power of Babylon,
from Bali to Cali - far beneath the Coral Sea.

Let me sail, let me sail, let the Orinoco flow,
Let me reach, let me beach on the shores of Tripoli.
Let me sail, let me sail, let me crash upon your shore,
Let me reach, let me beach far beyond the Yellow Sea.

from the North to the South, Ebudae into Khartoum,
from the deep sea of Clouds to the island of the moon,
carry me on the waves to the lands I've never been,
carry me on the waves to the lands I've never seen
... and yet it’s just art.

The theologians' appreciation of true story magazines is completely understandable. Will we ever be able again to experience the real world in a way that is as deep and powerful as Columbus’ way?
Works of art are indeed always products of having been in danger, of having gone to the very end in an experience, to where man can go no further. -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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Post by jonsjourney »

Will we ever be able again to experience the real world in a way that is as deep and powerful as Columbus’ way?
This is a provocative question.

My initial thought was 'no', at least not within the confines of our current physical environment (Earth).

But, then again...what about when one puts oneself on a path of revelation? If I am primed for a mythological experience (having read stories, poems, Joe...or listening to inspiring music, etc) and the circumstances line up in which to have the experience (many options here...a fever, mind-altering drug, deep meditative state, deprivation of food, etc) then I can surely have a deeply significant spiritual experience. That experience would be unique to that person and would be an aggregate of all those previous experiences coming together at that moment of time.

A person may not find the Orinoco flow, but their experience could be just a powerful for them, based on their belief system, as any one could have experienced 400 years ago within the confines of a more rigid and dogmatic belief system.

If we contemplate the base nature of everything, there is an interconnectedness which binds us to the universe. Perhaps our experience would be along those lines...combining our knowledge of the physical universe with our innate intuition of universal interconnections. Kind of like Quarks popping out of Lotuses on a mirror-like reflecting pool.

I guess where I am going is this. If we are primed to have a mythological experience and we are in the position to receive the message, then we can certainly have a deeply significant event. I wonder, though, do we need to seek it or can it occur spontaneously...when we least expect it?
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

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Post by Neoplato »

JJ Wrote:
I guess where I am going is this. If we are primed to have a mythological experience and we are in the position to receive the message, then we can certainly have a deeply significant event. I wonder, though, do we need to seek it or can it occur spontaneously...when we least expect it?
Hey JJ, this sounds like the old “Ah Ha” moment. I am of the opinion we need to seek it. “Seek and ye shall find”. However, there appears to be moments of spontaneity that occur at times in a person’s life. However, typically, these brief periods are soon forgotten.

Wait a minute; I think there was a Mary Tyler Moore episode on this. A clown died that worked at the TV station?
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

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Post by jonsjourney »

Hey JJ, this sounds like the old “Ah Ha” moment. I am of the opinion we need to seek it. “Seek and ye shall find”. However, there appears to be moments of spontaneity that occur at times in a person’s life. However, typically, these brief periods are soon forgotten. -Neo
Indeed. I guess I was wondering if the experience that is sought is somehow less profound than one that may occur spontaneously...

I was thinking that if we seek something and find it, we may look back and question whether or not we created our experience because that is what we wanted. Whereas, if something happens spontaneously, we cannot question our own motives...or can we?
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

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Post by Cindy B. »

jonsjourney wrote:I guess where I am going is this. If we are primed to have a mythological experience and we are in the position to receive the message, then we can certainly have a deeply significant event. I wonder, though, do we need to seek it or can it occur spontaneously...when we least expect it?

...I guess I was wondering if the experience that is sought is somehow less profound than one that may occur spontaneously...
If, jons--since I'm not sure--by "mythological experience" you're referring to a "numinous experience," that is, an experience that can be overwhelmingly awesome and meaningful, it matters little whether the experience is directly sought or induced or arises spontaneously. Psychologically the intensity of these experiences is similar such that the event is never forgotten, and the effect is always transformative in some way. (And what I'm referring to differs from those flashes of intuion or "aha!" moments that Neoplato mentioned.) Does this help?

Cindy
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by jonsjourney »

Does this help? -Cindy
Sometimes when I pose these questions, they are more "ponderings" than expressions for clarifications or answers. It's my way of participating in the rhetoric here.

I tend to think that, even if an experience is numinous, it can be called into question more if we have sought it intentionally than if it occurred spontaneously. For example...

Lets say a person has had a troubled life. They turn to a religion. The religion offers many answers to those tough questions the person has been struggling with. The decision to enter this system is deliberate. Later down the road, the person becomes disillusioned when they learn that much of the basis of their belief system is not a fact, but rather a metaphor. The person looks back and says "Well, I chose to go this road and it is falling short of my expectations...etc, so I am going to move on". They may have had a numinous experience early in their conversion process, but because it was sought with intention, it is less salient.

Person number two is traveling in France. They go to Chartres Cathedral. While there, they have a beatific vision which propels them out of their bodily experience and right into the realm of the transcendent. There was no intent, although there would have probably been plenty of conditioning earlier in their life. Because this vision was not sought, I tend to think it would be more salient. If we find a $20 bill laying on the sidewalk, we will probably walk looking down far more often. If we saw an amazing shooting star, we may spend more time looking up when we walk at night...watch out for that canyon or you will enter the realm of transcendence permanently!!!

But if we are always seeking the $20 bill and never see one, we may stop looking right? I tend to think that the transformative experience that is sought is not as salient as one that occurs spontaneously. This is just my view, from this chair, at this particular moment in time.

:D
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

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Post by Neoplato »

Numinous (pronounced /nuːmɨnəs, njuːmɨnəs/) (from the Classical Latin numen) is an English adjective describing the power or presence of a divinity. The word was popularised in the early twentieth century by the German theologian Rudolf Otto in his influential book Das Heilige (1917; translated into English as The Idea of the Holy, 1923). According to Otto the numinous experience has two aspects: mysterium tremendum, which is the tendency to invoke fear and trembling; and mysterium fascinas, the tendency to attract, fascinate and compel. The numinous experience also has a personal quality to it, in that the person feels to be in communion with a wholly other. The numinous experience can lead in different cases to belief in deities, the supernatural, the sacred, the holy, and the transcendent.
This is actually what I meant, I just didn't know it had a name. Thanks Cindy. I usually referred to this as "The AH HA moment". But after that, I've also had numerous "mini ah has". :D

JJ Wrote:
I was thinking that if we seek something and find it, we may look back and question whether or not we created our experience because that is what we wanted.


That's how I wound up here and discovered Joe. I needed confirmation. The joy and relief I felt when I first watched POM is indescribable. I think it brought tears to my eyes. 8)

Now I'm broading my knowledge and depth. That's why I'm reading Jung. :wink:
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

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Post by Cindy B. »

jonsjourney wrote:I tend to think that the transformative experience that is sought is not as salient as one that occurs spontaneously. This is just my view, from this chair, at this particular moment in time.
I would suggest that there are as many paths of personal transformation as there are people to have them. Some feel that press from below--or from above depending on one's point of view--beginning early in life and spend a lifetime pursuing what I think of as "wholeness" and what Campbell called "following one's bliss." Some might experience a numinous jolt of awakening, so to speak, that sets them off in an entirely new direction. Still others, particularly when they approach middle age and realize that so far they may have lived the life expected of them rather than the life that speaks to them, come to recognize that they do have choices then set off without fanfare to transform themselves and their lives. Some who've decided to make creative living a way of life might also experience a spontaneous jolt of numinosity that says either, "Yes, you're still headed in the right direction," or "Now turn left here." Others... What path and which experiences along the way may be most salient or most meaningful is only for the individual to know.

In my opinion, of course. :wink:

Cindy


P.S. And sorry, Clemsy. We've taken this thread way off the track of Campbell's lecture.
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by Clemsy »

sorry, Clemsy. We've taken this thread way off the track of Campbell's lecture.
But not from Martin's post! Carry on.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

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Post by bnorrgar »

Will we ever be able again to experience the real world in a way that is as deep and powerful as Columbus’ way?
It's a great question, and I have to answer yes... to elucidate more let me tell a story of my experience:

Simply... I am a whitewater paddler and I find bliss upon the river. Through harrowing adventures I am brought to places and perspectives of the natural world that you can't help but have that numinous or awe-inspiring feeling. After plunging yourself through the beauty of a chaotic river inside the most beautiful slot canyon and you watch as the river opens up and meets a vast inland ocean (Great Lakes). It's a spiritual experience and that "numinous" sensation is a reflection of the subconscious identification with the river as metaphor. You pass through the tumults and thrashings of the river, which in their power and danger have an unreal beauty. It is a dichotomy so often known in life. One moves onward as each rapid challenges you and threatens... but instead of resenting the struggle but find bliss in it exhilaration of the ride (perhaps over a 30' waterfall). Is life not the same? Is it not a model for your life and the struggles one faces? Do we not move onward through the bliss and turmoil in the journey of lives and in hindsight and say, "what a ride"?!?!

Furthermore, after you have spent your day paddling your way through the parallel turmoil and beauty you come to the mouth of the river as it opens up to a great horizon line of the ocean... the feeling it gives you is transcendent of words. You float amongst the dying river and experiencing its birth into a more encompassing plane of vastness. Will our deaths not be the same?

In a sense I have created a myth on the river, and the numinous awe that I experience has become subconscious identification with the metaphor before me...

I can intimately understand how Columbus may have felt beholding such a sight. And so I feel that there is hope for people in the modern world to experience these practical and literal manifestations of metaphor in the world. They may not be experienced as I have in the the extremes of life, but I believe can be found in daily life no matter where one finds them self. Joseph Campbell gives a source of knowledge that allows one to find those experiences and illuminate "myths" that surround us all; here and now just as Columbus felt he did centuries ago.

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Post by Neoplato »

And so I feel that there is hope for people in the modern world to experience these practical and literal manifestations of metaphor in the world.
Well there is always hope. The problem is making people aware that "manifestations of metaphors" occur all the time...as long as you're looking for them.
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Post by kevin gunderson »

Perhaps any moment of "discovery" can be transformative by it's very definition. Columbus had found a "new" world; new to him, not to the people and animals who already lived there.

One of the first instincts of humanity is to apply the supernatural or spiritual to the "unknown," which we could also refer to as the "new." Indeed, the native cultures Columbus encountered had this same reaction to the sight of this strange white man riding a horse, an animal and human unknown to them and therefore mystical. Likewise, Columbus' river was unknown and mystical to him, therefore he attempted to apply his previous world-view to the unknown, as the natives applied theirs to him.

In my view, scientific reasoning has led to an expansion of understanding AND mystery. Each new scientific discovery also spawns new previously inconceivable questions and is therefore eternally compatible with the eternal mystery of life. There is plenty of mystery still out there for modern man, plenty of opportunity for experiencing the world more deeply and powerful than Columbus or anybody else.

In short, if you think you know everything, you're just wrong :-)

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