Lecture II.1.2 - Mythology East and West

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Lecture II.1.2 - Mythology East and West

Post by Clemsy »

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Lecture II.1.2 - Mythology East and West

Download this Lecture: HERE

Read the Transcript: HERE
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

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Post by Clemsy »

TRACK 11: The Still Point: Cross and Tree

Now, in the medieval Christian tradition, the cross is called Holy Rood. It is identified with that second tree in the garden. Allegorically, Christ is the fruit of that tree. In the Communion meal where we eat Christ, we are eating the fruit of eternal life and eating exactly the fruit of that tree and are experiencing eternal life. And Christ is celebrated in the Middle Ages in a kind of European way as the hero who broke past the gate, and there are hymns saying, “Praise to thee who broke past the gate and opened again the golden way to the tree of paradise.” So, Christ on the cross, Buddha on the tree, are equivalent figures. These are the same myth.

Now this passage was a fortuitous find. A central theme to a presentation I’m constructing is the idea that, if you were to map myth in terms of a direction, if you were to place arrows where the symbols and metaphors are, they all direct you to the Still Point. The image of the tree and the snake, from Yggdrasil, the Hesperides with its golden apples of eternal life, the tree on which hangs the Golden Fleece, the staff of Asclepius, Buddha beneath the Bo Tree shielded by the snake, the caduceus, on and on… They’re all symbols for eternity, that place where duality is reconciled. The image of Golgotha became meaningful for me after seeing Power of Myth and reading Campbell, where before it was just a sacred image I associated with my Catholic orientation. It was a historical event. Now, Christ hangs between the two thieves, one destined for hell, the other for heaven and there he is at the balance point, and Campbell reminds me that the cross is the tree of eternal life and he is the fruit of that tree.

Of interest is that now we are allowed to eat from it, while before it had been hidden: "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." (Genesis 3:22)

Of course, the dominant impulse in Christianity is the sociological function, so this image becomes bounded by the rules of the church. But really, they are all the same image, saying the same thing: It’s here. It’s now.

Thoughts?

Cheers,
Clemsy
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

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Post by Martin_Weyers »

The central image in Hero with a thousand Faces (what you have been calling the central and eternal "still point") is the World Navel. I remember, when we discussed that book here in the forums, a few years ago, some people had trouble relating that image to the hero's journey. In my own little version of the hero's journey, the circle is always drawn as a wheel, and in the centre there's the hub, that relates to the world navel: Whereever you are, you're related to the eternal. That is, in my judgement, the most important function of myth. The idea is not so much to procede through the whole journey, and a release afterwards. If you relate to the hub, you're already released, no matter where you are.

Another symbol you can find in Genesis, but also in many other stories about the world tree, is the world navel in form of a fountain next to the tree. In some old churches (for example Campbell's favourite cathedral in Chartres) there is actually a fountain next to the altair - an arrangement that is based on a vision by Ezechiel. And what is the Grail? A portable world navel!

What I find interesting in comparing buddhism and christianity is, that both have such a strong focus on suffering. However, in Buddhism you're encouraged to help yourself, rather than waiting for salvation. So the cross needs to be transformed back into a tree, and the altair into a fountain.

This is supposedly the reason why Campbell was so fond of the image of Christus Triumphans (Jesus goes to the cross like the bridegroom to the bride, etc.) It's quite contrary to the idea of the good (we) fighting the evil (they): Find your still point and you won't need an enemy anymore.
Works of art are indeed always products of having been in danger, of having gone to the very end in an experience, to where man can go no further. -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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Post by Neoplato »

This is supposedly the reason why Campbell was so fond of the image of Christus Triumphans (Jesus goes to the cross like the bridegroom to the bride, etc.) It's quite contrary to the idea of the good (we) fighting the evil (they): Find your still point and you won't need an enemy anymore.-Martin
I like it! :D
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Post by Martin_Weyers »

Neoplato wrote:I like it! :D
Sure! On the other hand, I like stories, too, and there's no good story without a bad chap. So if we all find our still point and stop maintaining our favourite enemy, we're running out of good stories ... Another reason to lavish care on our enemy. The whole thing starts confusing me! :mrgreen:
Works of art are indeed always products of having been in danger, of having gone to the very end in an experience, to where man can go no further. -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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Post by Andreas »

A good enemy is a crucial for a good story, it is an opprotunity for the hero to realize who he is. The better the enemy the more grand the hero.

But at the end, the enemy is noone else but ourselves. I think the hero is only fighting to realize his own potentialities. ;)

One question though. Why we cannot have an enemy (or fight for something) if we find our still point?

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Post by Neoplato »

One question though. Why we cannot have an enemy (or fight for something) if we find our still point?-Andreas.
I've contemplated this and I believe this is what the samurai are supposed to acheive. Or that Arjuna battle where Krishna convinced him to slaughter everyone.

I obviously don't subscribe to these interpretations of "oneness". I get images of Hitler.
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Post by Andreas »

I think the true fight, which has nothing to do with slaughter, begins when we find that still point, maybe.

The main difference is that of respect, you fight, you have an enemy but at the same time you realize that the other side is equally justified.

That is why I like the buddha story more because even after he have found his still point he returns to the world and tries to explain his own realization.

:?:

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Post by jonsjourney »

This seems to be a bouncing back and forth around the idea of doing one's "duty". I get a bit uncomfortable with that word. Perhaps it is that Kant liked it so much, but the real question is who decides what one's duty is? Arjuna did not get to decide what his duty was, did he? He was being told what his duty was. The Buddha, it seems to me, had an entirely different experience. Mara told him that his duty was to withdraw from the world because nobody would understand his enlightenment. In spite of this, Buddha Shakyamuni goes out into the world and teaches until his death, not because of duty, but because he thinks that if even only one person understands, it would have been worth the effort.

It appears that the Buddha was teaching us to be wary of duty because that duty may be defined by someone other than us. Had he done his duty, he would have remained at home with his wife and child and been the king his father would have liked him to be. Once he realized that the worldly trappings only led to further craving for the transitory satisfaction of materialism, he threw off the blinders and went into the world on his terms. His life was arguably much more difficult from that day forward, but far more profound, as well.
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

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Post by Neoplato »

The main difference is that of respect, you fight, you have an enemy but at the same time you realize that the other side is equally justified.-Andreas
If you find yourself in a situation where you're going to have to fight, one should be mentally prepared. Otherwise you'll end up with PSD.

When I learned I had to go to "Desert Storm" back in 1990, I resolved myself to the notion that I was dead (mostly because I knew that if it was him or me...it would be him). It helped in the long run. However, one could see this as a "cowardly" approach.
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

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Post by Ercan2121 »

jonsjourney wrote:This seems to be a bouncing back and forth around the idea of doing one's "duty". I get a bit uncomfortable with that word. Perhaps it is that Kant liked it so much, but the real question is who decides what one's duty is? Arjuna did not get to decide what his duty was, did he? .
Duty is really a difficult word and most people believe that it's determined by
society; but sometimes Nature decides about someone's true function in life.
A warrior has to fight because that's his nature exactly like a hero who's unhappy
without adventure. That's what I think :-)

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Post by jonsjourney »

Duty is really a difficult word and most people believe that it's determined by
society; but sometimes Nature decides about someone's true function in life.
A warrior has to fight because that's his nature exactly like a hero who's unhappy
without adventure. That's what I think -Ercan
The perspective that personality (or what you might call nature) is important is certainly one that I have embraced for a long time...ever since reading Jung again. However, the situation matters and there is just no getting around that. Societies can tell us as much about duty as any individual instinct, or nature, could. In today's world, it is likely that the situation matters more than the will of the individual. We are, it seems, trapped in our own constructs.

This idea could be seen as a glass half empty kind of statement, but I think if we take a serious look around ourselves and ask the question of whether or not we have created our own chains of bondage, the answer is primarily 'yes'. We are slaves, to a large degree, to our creations. We have bought into a way of life that seems to be bringing us to a brink in terms of how we view each other and "things" (ie. material possessions). The reality is that our trajectory, the human trajectory, is unsustainable. Maybe the joke is on us and it is just the way of the world. I am one of those naive folks who thinks we could change if we really wanted to.

We have created the technologies and the tools to bury us or to lift us up another notch or two on the evolutionary trajectory. We are going to have to ask ourselves, are we the bird on the wire who is going to watch things unfold, or are we the bird on the wire who is going to act?
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

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Post by Einherjar »

A perhaps different view relevant to topic can be found in norse mythology.
Yggdrasil, the world three where Odin once hangs for nine days inflicted with wound in his side from a spear. Doing so to attain the wisdom and understanding of what human suffering was about. At the bottom of Yggdrasil there are three well known as Urðarbrunnr. These wells are guarded by three Norns named past, present and future. Different from present christianity with absolutes of good and evil, Norse mythology sees good and evil as different aspects of one concept. In symbolic terms you can see depiction of Jesus on the cross along the lines found in norse mythology. Jesus as axis mundi in center, with the two thieves ( two serpents ) on each side. One thief repents, the other rejects. + -, alpha and omega.....
In art related to norse mythology a cross with a serpent on each side is perhaps easier to interpret. I have even seen bronze age art with two mooseheads.

Looking to America or Britain with their use and belief in duty and being a promotor of good against the evildoers in current war in Afghanistan, it could reflect a christian culture with the absolutes influencing it.

Looking to Norway, and perhaps Scandinavia in general it is possible to find a difference. Soldiers are not soldiers because they need a job, nor does it pay good compared to average yearly wage. Most know, and even acknowledge that we are not in Afghanistan as forces of "good" against the evil in the world. We are there to honor our oath as allies, and to ensure a part in the "plunder" ( Securing energy resources:OIL ).

In the public debate soldiers openly admits they enjoy the aspects of feeling present and the strong experience of being on the battlefield. They use Norse symbols to express unity. Reports of instigating bloodfeudes as revenge for fallen comrades are known. Even reports of units taking detours from missions to engage instead of avoid combat are known. They are warriors and war is the adventure.

The rally call for battle is again : To Vallhalla. Perhaps as a statement of death being a fair price as long as the present can be experienced to its fullest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1eMONDyFRM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prHJ2wVo4LA

Some could find it disturbing, others fascinating. At least it is honest, as all humans are good and bad.
Eyvitar firna - er maðr annan skal, þess er um margan gengr guma; heimska ór horskum - gerir hölða sonu - sá inn máttki munr.

Never place blame on man, because it happens to all. No matter how wise, a fool he becomes, when love steals his powers.

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Post by jonsjourney »

Looking to Norway, and perhaps Scandinavia in general it is possible to find a difference. Soldiers are not soldiers because they need a job, nor does it pay good compared to average yearly wage. Most know, and even acknowledge that we are not in Afghanistan as forces of "good" against the evil in the world. We are there to honor our oath as allies, and to ensure a part in the "plunder" ( Securing energy resources:OIL ). -Einherjar
Framed in that way the desired result, or "boon" is no different for the American and Norwegian forces. Oil.

Many troops with impeccable discipline have been run out of Afghanistan over the past few thousand years. No nation has held sway there, not even their own "nation", although framing Afghanistan as a nation is making the first of many fundamental errors in understanding its culture and politics. It is pure folly.

From this seat, it matters not at all whether one wants to die for the glory of a nation, for Valhalla, or for any other unidentifiable entity, it is all chasing smoke....shadows and dust.
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

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Post by Andreas »

From this seat, it matters not at all whether one wants to die for the glory of a nation, for Valhalla, or for any other unidentifiable entity, it is all chasing smoke....shadows and dust. - JJ
It makes it much more easier though to kill for Valhalla or for the glory of a nation than actually going there to kill and die for oil. ;)

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