Jung (In the weeds): Part One

Do you have a conversation topic that doesn't seem to fit any of the other conversations? Here is where we discuss ANYTHING about Joseph Campbell, comparative mythology, and more!

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Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. »

Indeed, Neoplato, there is a savior archetype; sometimes it's also called the messiah archetype. And while we tend to speak of archetypes as if they were pure types with cut and dried defining characteristics and potential patterns of expression, the archetypal image that actually emerges is generally not so pure, e.g., the warrior who is also a savior.

Also, when it comes to the terms “archetype” and “persona” and their connection, the persona is the socially defined role that arises from a given archetype’s expression which includes associated behaviors, beliefs, and attitudes.

Last, “preprogrammed” as in “hard wired” might be too strong a characterization when it comes to psychic instincts, that is, archetypes. Try thinking in terms of underlying psychic patterns that potentially can be expressed and that are given to extensive variation in expression across time, peoples, and cultures.

Cindy
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Post by Neoplato »

Looks like I was rambling a bit in my last post. Sorry about that. :(
Try thinking in terms of underlying psychic patterns that potentially can be expressed and that are given to extensive variation in expression across time, peoples, and cultures.
I think I'm looking for ridgid definitions, I guess there aren't any. Just patterns of behavior that can be classified?

I'm now reading about dream analysis. Not as interesting as the achetypes. Although I guess it is the conflict between the persona and the achetype that leads to dreams,
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Post by Cindy B. »

Neoplato wrote:I'm now reading about dream analysis. Not as interesting as the achetypes.
Dreams and art in all its forms, Neoplato, that's where the most salient effects of archetypes are easiest to discern. For your first read through this section, I suggest ignoring Jung's focus on technique and just listen to him describe the various archetypes and their expressions. And even if at first all's not clear intellectually, your intuitive side will understand, I'm sure. So enjoy!

Cindy
Last edited by Cindy B. on Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Cindy B. »

Neoplato wrote:I think I'm looking for ridgid definitions, I guess there aren't any. Just patterns of behavior that can be classified?
Well, yes, Neoplato, ultimately there's nothing black-and-white about human nature and the functioning of the psyche, and the very thing that appeals most to me about analytical psychology is that Jung embraced what is inherently creative and variable about mind and behavior. (Compare this perspective to Freud's psychoanalytical psychology, for example, that is a rigid system, so to speak, and based in reductionism and determinism.) So while the archetypes as psychic instincts indeed are nature's givens, the potentiality for creative expression within these bounds is inherent, too, one reason why "rigid definitions" are few and far between with Jung. Don't worry, you'll get used to it. :wink:

Cindy
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Post by Neoplato »

So while the archetypes as psychic instincts indeed are nature's givens, the potentiality for creative expression within these bounds is inherent, too, one reason why "rigid definitions" are few and far between with Jung.
Ah...creative expression. :idea: Yes, there's nothing structured about that and to me it is obvious that creativity arises from the unconscious mind. The interaction of these "psychic instincts" and what eventually manifests as personality and behavior is very interesting to me as well.
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Post by Cindy B. »

Neoplato wrote:Ah...creative expression. Yes, there's nothing structured about that and to me it is obvious that creativity arises from the unconscious mind. The interaction of these "psychic instincts" and what eventually manifests as personality and behavior is very interesting to me as well.
Exactly, Neoplato. :D You've grasped the essence of what is fundamental to Jungian thought, so carry this insight with you from now on as you pursue your readings, no matter what the topic at hand.

Cindy
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by Neoplato »

Today's reading had a ton of good quotes in it. I'll post them here but I won't have time to elaborate on each too much.
"Assiimilation" .....means mutual penetration of conscious and unconscious, and not-as is commonly thought and practiced-a one sided evaluation, interpretation and deformation of unconscious contents by the conscious mind. As to the value and significance of unconscious contents in general, very mistaken views are current."

"As if all that is good , reasonable, worth while, and beautiful had taken up abode in the conscious mind! Have the horrors of the World War done nothing to open our eyes, so that we still cannot see that the conscious mind is even more devilish and perverse than the naturalness of the unconscious?"

"The psyche is a self regulating system that maintains its equilibrium just as the body does"

"It is only through comparative studies in mythology, folklore, religion, and philology that we can evaluate their (symbols) nature scientifically" (comment: I'm sure there are those out there that will state that comparing is not scientifiic. :wink: )

"Therefore, through the assimilation of unconscious contents, the momentary life of consciousness can once more be brought into harmony with the law of nature from which it all too easily departs, and (the patient) can be led back to the natural law of his own being."

"It (assimilation) leads in the end to that distant goal which may perhaps have been the first urge to life: the complete actualization of the whole human being, that is, individuation"
Wow! Spirituality or Pshychology? You make the call. :shock:

Here's a few more on "Development of the Individual". I see the definition of "Personality" has changed in the last hundred years.
"...what is usually meant by personality (is) a well-rounded psychic whole that is capable of resistance, and abounding in energy-(this) is an adult ideal"
Today we say everyone has a personality. It appears Jung's notion of personality means something totally different.
"Nowadays, "personality training" has become an educational ideal that turns it back upon the standardized, mass produced, "normal" human being demanded by the machine age."
Moreover,
"But the parrot-like book-learned and mechanical use of methods that is still practised today is no education either for a child or for educator. People are everlastingly saying that a child's personality must be trained"
More "Kids in the Cave" :D

I definitely can see the influence on Campbell from these notions.
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Post by Neoplato »

For those of you following, here are more quotes from Neoplato's Adventures in Jungianland.

Turns out the concept of personality has totally morphed. For Jung, people don't have a personality, they develop into a personality.
"Personality is Tao"
:shock: Wasn't expecting that when I started reading. There are so many good quotes I could post here, but I'll keep it short.
"For in every adult there lurks a child-an eternal child.......This is the part of the human personality which wants to develop and become whole."

"Personality is a seed that can only develop by slow stages throughout life."

"It (a personality without wholeness) would be nothing but an abortion, a premature pseudo-adult; yet our modern education systems has already given birth to such monsters...." (Tell us how you really feel Carl :wink: )
And to hit the point home....
"Would it not be sacrilege, a Promethean or even Luciferian act of presumption, if a superman ventured to grow an homunculus in a bottle and then found it sprouting into a Golem?"
Scary :twisted:
"He (a person) must obey his own law, as if it were a daemon whispering to him of new and wonderful paths. Anyone with a vocation hears the voice of their inner man: he is called. " ( The call to adventure?)

".....an historical instance is provided by the daemon of Socrates."
However, BEWARE....
"Only the man who can consciously assent to the power of the inner voice (daemon) becomes a personality; but if he succumbs to it he will be swept away by the blind flux of psychic events and destroyed."
Jung then gives an example of Christ.
"The religion of love (Early Christianity) was the exact psyhological counterpart to the Roman devil-worship of power"
Is this any different from today? :?
"The deification of Jesus, as also for the Buddha, is not surprising, for it affords a striking example of the enormous valuation that humanity places upon hero figures and hence upon the ideal of personality."
These are not even half of the quotes I underlined today. Just the most striking.
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Post by Cindy B. »

Neoplato wrote:However, BEWARE....

"Only the man who can consciously assent to the power of the inner voice (daemon) becomes a personality; but if he succumbs to it he will be swept away by the blind flux of psychic events and destroyed."
Yes, Jung was not averse to the dramatic. :wink: But this quote does highlight, Neoplato, why the strengthening of conscious ego functioning is essential to the individuation process, particularly when part of that process includes a deliberate exploration of the unconscious. A weak or unhealthy ego can be overwhelmed by unconscious processes and contents, and in the most extreme case, the result can be a psychosis. The application of Jungian depth psychology techniques is not for everyone.

Cindy
Last edited by Cindy B. on Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Evinnra »

8) This is a fascinating topic how the Jungian Ego is related to the Jungian Self! As I was interpreting the language of psychology describing the process of acquiring a specific role I couldn’t help noticing that deciding whether ‘Self happens to Ego’ or ‘Ego happens to Self’ involves the same question as the question in philosophy regarding the existence of free will. (Well, pretty similar questions, if not exactly the same.) From where does the Jungian Self receive its content? (I.e. what makes the collective unconscious?) What makes the Ego select one impulse coming from the Jungian Self over another? Say, the Jungian Self relates the archetypal truth of the ‘Little Red Riding Hood” story to me, does my Jungian Ego have a choice in selecting the role of the Wolf, the Hunter, the Grandma or the title role? Would Jung say that the real Ego is the one that already has the preferences, or would Jung say that the Ego simply evaluates these roles before selecting one and precisely that selecting process is what the Ego is?
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Post by Neoplato »

Cindy Wrote:
A weak or unhealthy ego can be overwhelmed by unconscious processes and contents, and in the most extreme case, the result can be a psychosis. The application of Jungian depth psychology techniques is not for everyone.
Jung makes a distinction between Neurosis and Psychosis. He implies neurosis is treatable but psychosis is another matter. He didn’t say it was untreatable, but he was under the impression it was difficult.
From Wiki:
Neurosis (from the Greek νεύρωσις) refers to a class of functional mental disorder involving distress but not delusions or hallucinations, where behavior is not outside socially acceptable norms.[1] It is also known as psychoneurosis or neurotic disorder. Once a common psychiatric diagnosis, the term is no longer part of mainstream psychiatric terminology in the United States, though it continues to be employed in psychoanalytic theory and practice, and in various other theoretical disciplines.

Psychosis (from the Greek ψυχή "psyche", for mind or soul, and -ωσις "-osis", for abnormal condition), with adjective psychotic, literally means abnormal condition of the mind, and is a generic psychiatric term for a mental state often described as involving a "loss of contact with reality". People suffering from psychosis are said to be psychotic.

People experiencing psychosis may report hallucinations or delusional beliefs, and may exhibit personality changes and disorganized thinking. This may be accompanied by unusual or bizarre behavior, as well as difficulty with social interaction and impairment in carrying out the activities of daily living.
I guess if the person can’t be “made whole” when a neurosis develops, it may eventually lead to a psychosis. Or I guess a person can remain in a neurotic state their entire life. I’m definitely feeling that the gist is that most humans are walking around in different degrees of neurosis and have no clue. Now I know why he used the word “monstrous”. Now that IS scary.

Evinnra Wrote:
From where does the Jungian Self receive its content? (I.e. what makes the collective unconscious?) What makes the Ego select one impulse coming from the Jungian Self over another? Say, the Jungian Self relates the archetypal truth of the ‘Little Red Riding Hood” story to me, does my Jungian Ego have a choice in selecting the role of the Wolf, the Hunter, the Grandma or the title role? Would Jung say that the real Ego is the one that already has the preferences, or would Jung say that the Ego simply evaluates these roles before selecting one and precisely that selecting process is what the Ego is?
Hi Evinnra. I’ll attempt to answer (with Cindy looking over my shoulder). Jungian Self receives its content from the collective unconscious in the forms of archetypes and symbols (intrinsic instinct). Now in order to balance this “unconsciousness” with the conscious state of thinking, the Self requires an Ego. The Ego is like a ball in the middle of a see saw. On one side, you have a persona and on the other side you have the unconsciousness. From what I can tell (and I’m sure to be corrected if this is not the case), that these two opposing forces determines which “mask” is appropriate for a given situation.

To continue on that thought, the more the Ego “rolls” to the side of the persona, the stronger the unconscious reacts (such as strange dreams). When the ego rolls to the unconscious side, a neurosis sets in that is in conflict with the persona. If it rolls too far and a psychosis develops, then the persona becomes broken and the person can no longer interact with society.

Cindy…what’s my grade?
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Instincts, Archetypes, and the Collective Unconscious

Post by Cindy B. »

Essential to both Jung's and Campbell's thinking are the notions of instincts, archetypes, and the collective unconscious, and since the basics were initially addressed in a related thread, some might be interested in reading those posts as well.

Here's the link: http://www.jcf.org/new/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3800

Cindy
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The Psyche and Balance of Functioning

Post by Cindy B. »

Neoplato wrote:Cindy…what’s my grade?
Hey, Neoplato and Evinnra.

Most definitely, Neoplato, I shall assign you an “A”. :D You’ve learned a lot in a short time, and it’s very cool to observe the process. I do have a homework assignment for you, though: When you finish your first read of this compilation, consider immediately reading it through again. You dove into the deep end by beginning your studies with Jung’s own works, and he’s far from an easy read whether a novice or not. You’d be going in with an understanding that you didn’t have before, so you’ll absorb much more the second time around. I do the same, so you know, when it comes to Jung, and there have been many occasions when only two reads of certain material is not enough; then again, maybe it just takes me longer than some to grasp it all.

***

You make an important point in your post to Evinnra, Neoplato, about balance in the psychic system. And you may be surprised to hear that I’m about to tell you that a perfect balance is not the goal.

For the sake of discussion, assume that the psyche is a closed system that is divided into two parts, the conscious and the unconscious. (Actually it’s not a purely closed system. The outer environment is always impinging on the psyche, but set that aside for now.) Also assume that within this system as a whole there is a vast amount of energy available for psychic functioning. Some amount of this psychic energy is available for conscious functioning, and some (most, actually) is available for unconscious functioning. Now assume that between the conscious and the unconscious levels a threshold exists, what is typically referred to as “the threshold of consciousness,” that is a semi-permeable barrier, so to speak, that helps regulate the flow of psychic energy available for conscious and unconscious functioning. Whenever the threshold of consciousness is lowered, say due to stress or illness, the unconscious experiences an influx of energy that was previously reserved for conscious functioning, and the conscious ego is temporarily at the whim of unconscious processes and contents; the opposite occurs whenever this threshold is raised, and the result is suppression and repression of unconscious processes and an overemphasis on conscious functioning. It’s true, a one-sided psyche is an unbalanced psyche and troublesome for the individual, and the corrective move is always toward equilibrium to maintain what is optimal functioning for the ego.

Yet a perfectly balanced psyche would be stagnant like a pond without access to fresh water, and likewise the personality would become lifeless and dull. In our psychic lives we need this constant interplay of the conscious and the unconscious to experience the vitality of life and being as well as the occasional restraint, so the notion of balance is best interpreted as “achieving a bit more stability or a better balance between conscious and unconscious functioning whenever the personality tends significantly toward one-sidedness.” And here again, Neoplato, I bring in the ego as the center of consciousness, the hero of our story and keeper of the gate, that gate otherwise known as “the threshold of consciousness.” A strong and self-reflective ego can learn to determine when the personality could benefit from more conscious control or if the time is right to allow the unconscious more freedom of expression, and this is the goal...which, in all honesty, is never fully achieved, of course. As I said above, most psychic energy is reserved for unconscious functioning—humans are still babes in the woods when it comes to consciousness—so the ego has its work cut out for it. I, anyway, have placed my trust in the notion of Self as mistress of my castle, and rely on that link between Self and ego to steer me in the right direction when it comes to this gate-keeping. When I as ego do listen with that intuitive ear to those hints from Self, all’s gone well so far for the most part. Like anyone else, though, I have limitations and weaknesses to accommodate along the way, so, sure, I’ve had my share of falls into the moat. :roll:

***

And guys, (Well, guy and gal. :mrgreen: )

I’ve run out of time to post more for now, so I’ll come back to the Self and ego later if you’d like.


Cindy
Last edited by Cindy B. on Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Neoplato »

Cindy Wrote:
And you may be surprised to hear that I’m about to tell you that a perfect balance is not the goal.
Unfortunately, I'm not seeing that in the writing. The goal is to acheive personality which will result in individuation. Jung likens this to the "Will" of Schopenhaurer.
"Schopenhauer's will is without an ego".
What I'm seeing is that only when the ego balances the conscious and unconscious, does a person become "whole". And in essence the ego dissapears because a balance has been acheived. Complete assimilation.

Of course that's my interpretation. :wink:
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Individuation (Part 1)

Post by Cindy B. »

You're right, of course, Neoplato, that wholeness is the goal of individuation.

What I was addressing in terms of balance pertains specifically to the basic energic processes involved with the psyche and its functioning that the person (ego) makes use of or must deal with while pursuing that goal, and I mentioned it since you brought up the analogy of the seesaw. Your seesaw is also an example of process, with, say, the opposing forces of the conscious and the unconscious on either side, and the behavior of each rider, of course, affects the course of the ride. Yet consider if the two riders were to sit still in horizontal equilibrium--all processing has stopped; true, a balance has been achieved, but the ride is over, i.e., the process of individuation and the development of personality is stymied because the energy has been withdrawn given a lack of tension between the opposites. The reason why this analogy doesn't work as well, though, as the standard analogy that I shared is because the ego doesn't have its necessary role; and the fulcrum as ego doesn't work because the fulcrum is invariably stable no matter what the process. Neither does the fulcrum as the threshold of consciousness work because it’s is incapable of being moved, i.e., raised or lowered.

To strive for wholeness does not mean to be balanced in functioning at all times, and should you aim for that, you'll never be satisfied with the progress that you do make. Individuation is an ongoing process as is the creation of personality. And, Neoplato, wholeness is an ideal that is rarely if ever achieved in actuality; the individuation process continues until we take our last breath. It’s those extraordinary figures such as the Christ or the Buddha who can be said to have achieved wholeness and a completed individuation. Our goal—well, mine, anyway, since, who knows, perhaps it is within your potential to achieve a completed individuation :) --is to ever approach wholeness. We're in a continual state of becoming.

Neoplato wrote:…The goal is to acheive personality which will result in individuation. Jung likens this to the "Will" of Schopenhaurer.

"Schopenhauer's will is without an ego".
Would you please do me a favor, Neoplato, when you have the time? I’d like to know the title of the essay that you’re referencing with this quote and, if you can locate it in your book, its original source since I don’t have the same compilation of essays that you do. It’s unclear to me what the link is supposed to be between these men’s ideas as you presented it. Thanks.

Neoplato wrote: What I'm seeing is that only when the ego balances the conscious and unconscious, does a person become "whole". And in essence the ego dissapears because a balance has been acheived. Complete assimilation.
Hey, Evinnra! You might be interested, too—more about Self and ego.

Neoplato, I’m sorry to say that you’ve misunderstood. The ego does not “disappear” during the course of personality development and individuation—it grows ever more in its functioning and influence as one approaches wholeness. “Assimilation” refers to the integration of previously unconscious contents and processes into conscious awareness. We’re “making the unconscious conscious” and expanding consciousness, right? For individuation to occur, the ego as the center of consciousness has a significant role to play, and particularly with its link to Self as the archetype of wholeness, over time—a looong time—more and more of the functions of Self as the regulator of all psychic functioning become assimilated with the conscious functioning of the ego. Yet before one ever gets this far along in the individuation process, the ego grows in strength and functioning as it deals with these pesky details—persona, shadow, anima or animus. :wink: Perhaps it will help if I remind you again that to understand Jung or any other Western psychology, you must temporarily set aside the Eastern conceptualization of ego.

This might help, too. When you have the time, please look again at this model of the Jungian psyche labeled “Symbiosis Model.” Note the relationship of ego to Self and how this relationship changes over time: http://www.schuelers.com/ChaosPsyche/part_1_17.htm

Later!

Cindy
Last edited by Cindy B. on Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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