2010: Integration of East and West.

What needs do mythology and religion serve in today's world and in ancient times? Here we discuss the relationship between mythology, religion and science from mythological, religious and philosophical viewpoints.

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nandu
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Post by nandu »

The first frightening realisation is that you "know" instinctually that a reality exists without you - yet you can never prove it. The moment you start to think that one day your "I" is going to disappear, your mind freezes up and refuses to go further. So the ordinary human being does not think about his own death; yet it will happen, and your experience of reality will go away with it. Which is the only reality you know.

My world was very concrete and comfortable till I heard about quantum theory, and discovered that science only has a model of reality, but no knowledge of what it actually is.

Nandu.
Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavanthu

jonsjourney
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Post by jonsjourney »

On my little handy-dandy Zen daily calendar this was today's quote...
"When at last, in a single flash, you attain full realization, you will only be realizing the Buddha-nature which has been with you all the time" -Huang-po
Now, the first thing that popped into my mind when I read this was "Follow Your Bliss!"

I liken following one's bliss as being equivalent to being aware of your Buddha-nature and participating within that nature as completely as you can.

Do you see life as a "river" metaphorically....or maybe even in some sense literally?

How different does it feel psychologically and emotionally when you find that you are "swimming upstream" versus following the flow of events with some sense of equanimity?

Is it becoming harder and harder in the modern world for you to do these things?

Your bliss has been there with you since the beginning, but it may have become lost in the responsibilities and duties of living in this world. The "tyranny of the shoulds" as Karen Horney called it, can overwhelm our ideas about what we ought to be doing with our lives and set us upon a path that ultimately leads to an existential crisis.

Someday we will all find ourselves standing at a place where we will look back and wonder if we lived the kind of life we would have wanted to live if we could have had complete control over it. But, it seems to me, that part of flowing with a river requires an acceptance on the limitations of our control over the course that river takes. We can steer our boats and try to keep clear of the rocks and eddies, but we are going to have some scrapes and spins along the way. We may even get stuck on a sandbar or have to get out and carry the boat for some distance. Maybe this Bliss, this Buddha-nature is the knowledge that we are at least in the right boat, regardless of the river or it's direction.
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

boringguy
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Post by boringguy »

jj,

Makes me think again of this line from the movie, A River Runs Though It.
"Eventually, all things merge into one-------and a river runs through it."
Oh, and it sounds really cool when Robert Redford says it. :wink:



Lots to ponder there. One context I like for myself is of understanding how I am that which merges into one, and that which runs through it.
Is it becoming harder and harder in the modern world for you to do these things? - jj
Harder? Maybe, just because its easier to hide in the distractions of todays culture, but we certainly have the leisure and freedom for that in an unprecedented way, relative to most of history, I think. Conveying responsiblity with that is the challenge. The Venus Project has a different take on this, which I'm skeptical of as to whether is a realistic assesment of human nature, but its an interesting thought, as to how much human behavior could be affected by changing from the start of life, a threatened egos need for survival mechanisms. Or at least that's my take on their version.

bg
______________
Trust Nature
Last edited by boringguy on Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Andreas
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Post by Andreas »

Perfect post, Jons!

Describes my sentiments exactly.

For too long I have been swimming upstream, literally. The psychological tailspin of resisting life is definetely real. But then I figured it out that it was impossible to do it forever. Life is what it is and the only thing we have to learn is to take it as it comes and embrace it.

The modern world is indeed harsh, it teaches us to hold on to things and ideas. Death hit me hard, he cut my wings as I was heading to paradise. Ever since I fall and descend into the darkness. I just hope the impact is gentle. We are here for a moment, that is what is given to us... I do not know what the future will bring but I am curious.

There is a balance to be gained, life is not just about control, transcedence is also about letting go.

I let the river carry me to the pond.

P.S I blame O fortuna for the darkness in my post. 8)
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

jonsjourney
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Post by jonsjourney »

Lots to ponder there. One context I like for myself is of understanding how I am that which merges into one, and that which runs through it. -bg
Yes....ultimately, it seems we are both on the river and the river itself. Just like the frequent metaphor of the wave being part of the ocean...it is at once distinguished and indistinguishable.

The cosmos seems to have a flow from disorder (chaos perhaps) to order and then ultimately back to disorder. Cycles and circles. As I type these words, Ravi Shankar is playing in the background (a most serendipitous thing!) and taking me through a musical interpretation of just this very thing...from a loose and chaotic introduction into an organized and ordered Raga, and then back down to a disordered fading into oblivion. It is wonderful.
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

jonsjourney
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Post by jonsjourney »

The modern world is indeed harsh, it teaches us to hold on to things and ideas. Death hit me hard, he cut my wings as I was heading to paradise. Ever since I fall and descend into the darkness. I just hope the impact is gentle. We are here for a moment, that is what is given to us... I do not know what the future will bring but I am curious. -Andreas
I have certainly had a spill or two, as well. They have made me stronger...indeed ultimately a better man. I am not one who will over-sentimentalize the whole "what does not kill you only makes you stronger" saying, but there is some truth in it. The thing is, we never know what we are made of until we have our backs against the wall.

I can say this...for what it is worth...it sure is great to have you around here adding to the community. This place is full of really cool people from all over the world and if I do not say it often enough, it is an honor to be "hanging out" with everyone here. :D
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

Andreas
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Post by Andreas »

This place is full of really cool people from all over the world and if I do not say it often enough, it is an honor to be "hanging out" with everyone here. - Jons
Yeap. :)
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

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Post by Clemsy »

I have certainly had a spill or two, as well. They have made me stronger...indeed ultimately a better man. I am not one who will over-sentimentalize the whole "what does not kill you only makes you stronger" saying, but there is some truth in it. The thing is, we never know what we are made of until we have our backs against the wall. ~JJ
Adversity can make us stronger... but it can also make us cynical. The monk who teaches the meditation class I'm attending tells us that our peace of mind and happiness comes from our own minds. When we depend on something, or someone, external for that happiness we will, eventually, suffer.

While I don't agree wholeheartedly with the Buddhist idea that negative emotions such as anger and grief are to be avoided through mental discipline, I do believe that such discipline can make clear why those emotions occur, mitigate their impact and keep us from indulging in them.

Courage is required to do this, no? Those reasons are often quite difficult to confront. In the West, unfortunately, and most especially in the States, the constant message is that one is not wholly responsible, rendering one a child.

However, this is contradictory to the West's mythic tradition of the individual, and it is, IMO, the impact of Christianity that has mixed the message. Christianity is an Eastern construct and as such emphasizes community, and obedience, over the individual.

In Mythos III, Campbell says something fascinating that I hadn't considered before: The Arthur stories, particularly the Grail stories, are the foundation of the modern Western tradition in the manner that Homer was the foundation of the classical period.

The message of those stories is heretical to the Biblical tradition.

This is the primary conflict in the East vs. West debate. The East minimizes, and outright dismisses, the validity of the individual. You are your role (dharma) in society. Whereas in the West you wear your role. The former will impede Jung's idea of individuation, which is what I call becoming a true adult. This is so antithetical to the religions of the Near East that any talk of individualism is immediately connected with unrestrained childish impulses. The only way to be a true adult is to suppress your individuality, which is only capable of infantile pursuits. This is the consequence of the Fall of Man.

Bleh.

The Grail quest is precisely the path of bliss. In order to enter the forest at the darkest point where there is no path, one better be an adult. And a true adult, to mix my metaphors shamelessly, is to walk in the sunlight and confront whatever is revealed.

Where East meets West is in the ideas of meditation, mindfulness and the importance of the present moment. That is armor that enables you to confront the trials ahead.
.I can say this...for what it is worth...it sure is great to have you around here adding to the community. This place is full of really cool people from all over the world and if I do not say it often enough, it is an honor to be "hanging out" with everyone here
Just so. That Western tradition of individuality does not negate the human need for community.

Cheers,
Clemsy
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

jonsjourney
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Post by jonsjourney »

While i don't agree wholeheartedly with the Buddhist idea that negative emotions such as anger and grief are to be avoided through mental discipline, I do believe that such discipline can make clear why those emotions occur, mitigate their impact and keep us from indulging in them. -Clemsy
Indeed. I think one of the real strengths of Buddhism is in the recognition of feelings and thoughts. Thich Nhat Hanh places mindfulness 3rd in his sequence of teaching about the Eightfold Path. He sees mindfulness as so integral to all other aspects of the teachings that he moved it "up" from the 7th step in the path. And mindfulness is how we learn to recognize and mitigate those thoughts and feelings as they arise. Of course, every part of the Eightfold Path is fully integrated into all the others.

Courage is required to do this, no? Those reasons are often quite difficult to confront. In the West, unfortunately, and most especially in the States, the constant message is that one is not wholly responsible, rendering one a child.

However, this is contradictory to the West's mythic tradition of the individual, and it is, IMO, the impact of Christianity that has mixed the message. Christianity is an Eastern construct and as such emphasizes community, and obedience, over the individual. -Clemsy
You have hit it on the head here. We have become increasingly schizoid (for lack of a better analogy) as both individuals and a society as a result of these clearly differentiating ideas. I think that our modern society is in great part so confused and lacks solid social footing because of the conflict between individualism as propped up by American political values and the Christian call to communal love as its paradigm.

I am really looking forward to hearing Joe in Mythos III. I guess my greatest hope is that there is NEW stuff in there to be heard....maybe even stronger statements about these problems we so often talk about around here.
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

zoe
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Post by zoe »

jonsjourny:

Schizoid is an interesting characterization. It is kinder than my view of it as an issue of paranoia. In that view fears driven by a sense that events and activities be they global or local are directed at the individual seemingly explains many ills. Concerns over devise issues, gun rights, religious freedoms, immigration, gay rights, the list goes on, are perceived threat based. When groups of similarly threatened individuals become cohesive shared threats gain traction and become ripe for political manipulation. Either characterization is supported by Clemsy's posit that childlike egocentric denial of responsibility is a primary factor.

jonsjourney
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Post by jonsjourney »

Schizoid is an interesting characterization. It is kinder than my view of it as an issue of paranoia. -zoe
Well....we are likely a bit of both and then some! But I like the schizoid description because I tend to think that we are often unaware of our own contradictions and how they influence our behavior and subscriptions to certain social norms.
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

Dionysus
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Post by Dionysus »

In Mythos III, Campbell says something fascinating that I hadn't considered before: The Arthur stories, particularly the Grail stories, are the foundation of the modern Western tradition in the manner that Homer was the foundation of the classical period.
Yes. This was indeed the birth of the NEW outlook for Europe and the beginning of something new on planet earth.
Where East meets West is in the ideas of meditation, mindfulness and the importance of the present moment. That is armor that enables you to confront the trials ahead.
True. And it is precisely here, especially in the development of patience, where I need to focus on my own personal journey.

Thanks Clemsey! Nice post!

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Post by Clemsy »

You're welcome, D! Look for the release of Mythos III. It really is wonderful.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

jonsjourney
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Post by jonsjourney »

On today's "Zen Calendar" in the kitchen...
"All truths are not to be told" -George Herbert
I find this quote interesting. We seem to tend to think that truth is something that we should always be seeking. Remember the purpose of the agents in the X-Files?..."the truth is out there"...

Why would we want to not seek truth? Is it that truth can never really be found? Is it that we can only approach the truth, but never really see it? Much like the atomistic basis of all material objects, it may always remain one more step beyond our best efforts. Might it be a Platonic form that we can never touch physically, but lies behind how we perceive it? I tend to reject Platonism, at least as it is related to this idea of truth. The word truth, in my view, is a human creation and, therefore, exists only within the linguistic construct in which it was developed.

As usual, the specter of consciousness enters into the discussion at some point because it is this consciousness that we have that points us in a direction that there are immaterial substances that exist separate from the physical universe.

This also goes to the idea of striving. How do we learn the healthy limits of striving? To overreach is generally destructive, as is to just sit and not do anything. Somewhere between obsessive compulsions and total indifference lies that elusive Middle Path that is so often spoken about in the mystical traditions of both Eastern and Western thought.

Back to the quote. It seems to imply that there are things we should not approach, or perhaps if we are in possession of such a truth, we should not share it. Why?
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

Is it that truth can never really be found? Is it that we can only approach the truth, but never really see it?-JJ
In some schools of thought, not in all. I do agree that "words" can only be pointers due to subjective interpretation.
I tend to reject Platonism, at least as it is related to this idea of truth. The word truth, in my view, is a human creation and, therefore, exists only within the linguistic construct in which it was developed.
Well, IMHO, that's like throwing the baby out with the bath water. Although the word "truth" has lost its meaning over the years (since everyone claims to know it). This is why I prefer "pristine cognition".

And yes, I know that I'm in the minority here thinking that it is attainable (I don't have to be reminded).
Back to the quote. It seems to imply that there are things we should not approach, or perhaps if we are in possession of such a truth, we should not share it. Why?
Because a person might end up in the "bughouse" (or worse). As discussed in the "Tacey" thread. :wink:
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

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