2010: Integration of East and West.

What needs do mythology and religion serve in today's world and in ancient times? Here we discuss the relationship between mythology, religion and science from mythological, religious and philosophical viewpoints.

Moderators: Clemsy, Martin_Weyers, Cindy B.

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jonsjourney
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Post by jonsjourney »

And yes, I know that I'm in the minority here thinking that it is attainable (I don't have to be reminded). -Neo
Actually, I do not begrudge your goal for pristine cognition, at all. It is no more, or less, foolish than my take on how economics has pretty much ruined humanity. I am just not a big fan of unemotional "Spock" logic...which he could not even live up to.

In fact, if I can connect a few dots here...I can imagine a thesis that says: If we only had pristine cognition, we would realize how badly we are being screwed by free-market economics. :wink:

I just do not believe in concepts preceding human constructs. Physical objects like planets and such do precede life, as far as we know. If life evolves, it seems to follow that consciousness evolves with it and is not somehow magically placed into existence from some mystery source behind everything. If consciousness is an evolutionary artifact, then what comes from having it is an artifact as well, so then truth is a construct created by a particular kind of consciousness that has evolved here on this planet, in the circumstances that fostered its inception. I suppose that to my thinking, truth is just as good coming from this development as truth that somehow precedes the development. In fact, in my mind, it is better because it is the result of eons of thought about what is and is not true, rather than being "given" by some mystery source that remains unidentifiable. It gives credit to the human for playing a role in our own development, rather than being played like rat in a maze.

The same would be true for believing that we can achieve something like pure consciousness, or pristine cognition. If we wiped away all of the illusory walls that supposedly separate us, we might stand a chance of actually thinking sensibly about any given proposition. Of course, there is at least one really big problem. Sometimes there just is not a "right" answer....just the best answer, all things considered, which is not necessarily pristine, but is pragmatic or utilitarian in nature. And in such circumstances, "everybody wins" rarely, if ever, happens.

I don't know, Neo...this stuff has puzzled humans for as long as we have been able to contemplate such questions....and probably way, way further back than Plato or any of the other "fathers" of Western Philosophy. I suppose we are playing our part here, for better or worse. :)
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

Clemsy
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Post by Clemsy »

Somewhere Campbell says something to the effect that the most important truths can't be expressed, and the next important are misunderstood.

Note that Herbert is saying some truths can't be told. That's not saying they aren't attainable.

The tao that can be told is not the Eternal Tao....
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

I am just not a big fan of unemotional "Spock" logic...which he could not even live up to.-JJ
This isn't my image of pristine cognition, nor is "Commander Data". The Dalai Lama is a better image, if not the best.
If we only had pristine cognition, we would realize how badly we are being screwed by free-market economics.-JJ
No pristine cognition required there, people just need to take off the rose colored glasses. How about this instead:

"If our world leaders had pristine cognition, we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place". So much for "Divine Right".
If life evolves, it seems to follow that consciousness evolves with it and is not somehow magically placed into existence from some mystery source behind everything.
"Magically Placed" sounds like "Panentheism" (in which case I completely agree with you since I'm a "Pantheist". That is if the definitions would just stop changing). From wiki:
While pantheism asserts that God and the universe are coextensive, panentheism claims that God is greater than the universe and some forms hold that the universe is contained within God.[2] Much Hindu thought is highly characterized by panentheism and pantheism.[3]
IMHO, panentheism is a dualistic notion.
In fact, in my mind, it is better because it is the result of eons of thought about what is and is not true, rather than being "given" by some mystery source that remains unidentifiable. It gives credit to the human for playing a role in our own development, rather than being played like rat in a maze.
I view it like this. The rats created their own maze and don't realize it so they say "The Mighty Rat" created the maze (and partially blame him because they can't get out).
I don't know, Neo...this stuff has puzzled humans for as long as we have been able to contemplate such questions....and probably way, way further back than Plato or any of the other "fathers" of Western Philosophy. I suppose we are playing our part here, for better or worse.
Just think of all the fun we're having though. :wink:
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

jonsjourney
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Post by jonsjourney »

The tao that can be told is not the Eternal Tao.... -Clemsy
Yes, and I think that is certainly the point of the Buddha's flower sermon.

However, a private truth can be anything, since it is private. Or as my friend used to say...A wink is as good as a nod to a blind man.
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

Clemsy
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Post by Clemsy »

Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

jonsjourney wrote:
The tao that can be told is not the Eternal Tao.... -Clemsy
Yes, and I think that is certainly the point of the Buddha's flower sermon.
Interesting we get two different "points". I take it to mean "This is who we are, everything else is illusion". Of course I'm using words, which can only be a pointer.

Interestingly...
The received Tao Te Ching is a short text of around 5,000 Chinese characters in 81 brief chapters or sections (章).-wiki
...someone didn't decide to stop after the first "sentence" (idea). :D
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

Clemsy
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Post by Clemsy »

Yup. He appreciated the power of metaphor. And paradox.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

ALOberhoulser
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Post by ALOberhoulser »

GREAT STUFF - that Faces link!!

I need to get a 3 button hand me down with the Tao in the inside pocket! :lol:

jonsjourney
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Post by jonsjourney »

"This is who we are, everything else is illusion". -Neo
I hate it when I am walking through a dark room and stub my toe on illusion. :lol:
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. »

Hey, Jon.

I was scrolling through my bookmarks and thought of you. :)

Jung's Practice of Analysis: A Western Parallel to Ch'an Buddhism
By John Ryan Haule (2000)
http://www.jrhaule.net/Chan.html

Cindy
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

jonsjourney
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Post by jonsjourney »

Thank you Cindy! :D
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

I hate it when I am walking through a dark room and stub my toe on illusion.-JJ
Mmmm...well at least it was impermanent in the current manifestation. :lol:
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

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Post by Dionysus »

j.j. : Haven't participated much lately. Directed a play ( a critical and personal success). Three month commitment. Anyway, just picked up Batchelor's CONFESSION OF A BUDDHIST ATHEIST. Looking forward to reading it. Thanks for turning me on to him. -- Dio

jonsjourney
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Post by jonsjourney »

j.j. : Haven't participated much lately. Directed a play ( a critical and personal success). Three month commitment. Anyway, just picked up Batchelor's CONFESSION OF A BUDDHIST ATHEIST. Looking forward to reading it. Thanks for turning me on to him. -- Dio
Cool. Let me know what you think...could make for some good discussion here.
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

jonsjourney
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Post by jonsjourney »

It's been a while since I posted here. I found this really cool video of Alan Watts. Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0FQoypdDTk
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

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