Lucifer, being 'God's greatest Lover...

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personamyth
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Lucifer, being 'God's greatest Lover...

Post by personamyth »

One of the things that stood out for me, is Bill Moyers conversation with Joe that he mentioned Lucifer in the Persian Myth, as 'God's' greatest lover, and because Lucifer loves God so much that he's unable to bow to 'man' being Gods 'higher' creation than the Angels. So God cast him down and condemn him to hell.
And so Campbell mentioned that, the meaning of 'Hell' is the absence of the beloved...

Wow, this I think explained alot for me...since I've been emphasizing the need to find my 'balance' in life, meaning that other than getting stuck with work that I do not find any bliss or joy in, there's the desperate need or desire to hold on to my order of bliss. There's the part which I do not find bliss but only to do it for the sake of social duty, and also the place where I go to to find my bliss that has nothing to do with anybody.
To me, 'Hell' isn't just like the literal description of the harrowing place in the bible, instead, everything takes place in the mind. The now, can be 'hell' or 'heaven,' depending on what I'm able to see. Sometimes, in the toughest times of life, there are small moments where we get touched by the smallest things that make us smile, or recall our inner most emotions. This could be the meaning of 'heaven' or, I should say, a 'glimpse' through the small opening above the clouds into the light, where we are undergoing suffering in the present moment.
Whereas, 'Hell', is like the bondage of our souls or physical bodies to something...that we can't let go, or are bounded. 'Life' is Hell as some would say, is like the absence of vital energy, or drained...I should say. The 'Spark' that is gone from our eyes when we look in the mirror...because we have been overwhelmed by many things which tide us down. Not everyone can break free, depending on our paths in life, but we can find ways to free our spirits towards what we see as the 'light' of our life.

Lucifer is like the passionate one, who loves God so much, that it becomes his own hell to be bounded to God. If life is suffering as Campbell pointed out, then 'why did God create man? in the image of himself/herself?' my question is, does this have any relation to the meaning of experiences with pain and suffering of life as what Christ has gone through? Is it because 'man' are able to experience suffering like Christ, that causes Lucifer to be jealous and deny 'man' as God's creation? The more I thought about this, the more I hate to admit, that 'suffering' seems to be like what C3PO (Star Wars) says, "It seems we are made to suffer.."
But whats good of suffering? Why do so many people want to avoid suffering? Why do we envy of others, friends, or anybody who appears to live a good life when we see ourselves comparing with others? Perhaps the meaning of suffering doesn't just mean the physical 'realm, I mean our bodies, but also our inner/psychological struggles. Every thing we do from the beginning of everything, we go through the process of struggles. Our first step to learn to walk, when mothers leave our side on first day of school, learning to grow up and about this world, etc...Then we began to realize this world has so much bad things even more than good things nowadays.
Maybe to put it bluntly, the path of 'Suffering' although sounds morbid to life, is actually like treading in the path of Christ (metaphor). He taught many things and showed the people ways to become enlightened or spiritually awakened that offended authorities, and corrupted men of power. People say when Christ walked the earth, times are good and people are happy. I think it was Christ who brought hope and joy, bliss to people around him, but at the same time he suffered tremendously as well. I think we all know what he went through.
To me, Lucifer refuse to bow before 'man' because of 'man' have the same capability to experience 'suffering' and pain just as Christ did. But this 'suffering' as what Christ has shown, could also be twisted into 'suffering' that causes greater suffering, not joy and happiness.
"I know where I'm going and I know the truth, and I don't have to be what you want me to be. I'm free to be what I want." - Muhammad Ali (The Greatest)

Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

One of the things that stood out for me, is Bill Moyers conversation with Joe that he mentioned Lucifer in the Persian Myth, as 'God's' greatest lover, and because Lucifer loves God so much that he's unable to bow to 'man' being Gods 'higher' creation than the Angels. So God cast him down and condemn him to hell.
My take on this notion is that Lucifer is a victim of his own hubris. He wouldn’t bow to something he considered inferior to himself which had no concept of “the mind of God”. He failed to see the potential for growth or the need of a shepherd to accomplish this. Doesn’t a shepherd bow to the needs of his flock?

We have the same problem today when the human race refuses to bow to the needs of the people or to the needs of the Earth.
And so Campbell mentioned that, the meaning of 'Hell' is the absence of the beloved...


Or maybe the failure to understand the beloved leads to a self-inflicted alienation?
Wow, this I think explained alot for me...since I've been emphasizing the need to find my 'balance' in life, meaning that other than getting stuck with work that I do not find any bliss or joy in, there's the desperate need or desire to hold on to my order of bliss. There's the part which I do not find bliss but only to do it for the sake of social duty, and also the place where I go to to find my bliss that has nothing to do with anybody.
Societal duty, worldly concerns, and material possessions are all forms of attachment. However, complete renunciation may not be the best course of action especially when other people are concerned. Although it is very tempting at times.
To me, 'Hell' isn't just like the literal description of the harrowing place in the bible, instead, everything takes place in the mind. The now, can be 'hell' or 'heaven,' depending on what I'm able to see.
One book I’ve read talks about the notions of bondage and liberty. “Hell” is living within constraints that are forced upon the populace by “societal structure”. Whereas ”joy” is an idea of perfect freedom and liberty of these constraints so that people can create and express their humanity. Sharing our creations and talents with each other without putting a monetary value on them.
Lucifer is like the passionate one, who loves God so much, that it becomes his own hell to be bounded to God. If life is suffering as Campbell pointed out, then 'why did God create man? in the image of himself/herself?' my question is, does this have any relation to the meaning of experiences with pain and suffering of life as what Christ has gone through? Is it because 'man' are able to experience suffering like Christ, that causes Lucifer to be jealous and deny 'man' as God's creation? The more I thought about this, the more I hate to admit, that 'suffering' seems to be like what C3PO (Star Wars) says, "It seems we are made to suffer.."
IMHO, the human race inflicts suffering upon itself. Suffering begins with the infliction of the “law of man”. If we were to just follow “The Way”, I feel that all suffering could be eliminated.
But whats good of suffering? Why do so many people want to avoid suffering? Why do we envy of others, friends, or anybody who appears to live a good life when we see ourselves comparing with others? Perhaps the meaning of suffering doesn't just mean the physical 'realm, I mean our bodies, but also our inner/psychological struggles. Every thing we do from the beginning of everything, we go through the process of struggles. Our first step to learn to walk, when mothers leave our side on first day of school, learning to grow up and about this world, etc...Then we began to realize this world has so much bad things even more than good things nowadays.
For me, this suffering under the law of man opens the mind to seek “the law” which is beyond mankind. The desire to be free of suffering ignites some of us to find those universal truths and not believe or have faith in the “truths” of man.
Maybe to put it bluntly, the path of 'Suffering' although sounds morbid to life, is actually like treading in the path of Christ (metaphor). He taught many things and showed the people ways to become enlightened or spiritually awakened that offended authorities, and corrupted men of power. People say when Christ walked the earth, times are good and people are happy. I think it was Christ who brought hope and joy, bliss to people around him, but at the same time he suffered tremendously as well. I think we all know what he went through.
The Pythagoreans, Essenes, and other Theraputes established communities outside the main societal structure to avoid such conflicts. I do believe Christ spread hope and joy because he demonstrated there is another way.
To me, Lucifer refuse to bow before 'man' because of 'man' have the same capability to experience 'suffering' and pain just as Christ did. But this 'suffering' as what Christ has shown, could also be twisted into 'suffering' that causes greater suffering, not joy and happiness.
For me, the judging of others that appear to be ignorant or of a “lesser order” than yourself, and that are easily swayed by other men is a form of self-inflation. “Whatsoever you do to the least of my people, so as you do unto me”. Thereby, when Lucifer failed to bow to man, he failed to bow unto “God”.
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

Andreas
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Post by Andreas »

Hey, you might also want to consider this. Michael Toms asking Joseph Campbell.
In some sense, our gods become our demons, don't they?

My definition of a devil is a god who has not been recognized. That is to say, it is a power in you to which you have not given expression, and you push it back. And then, like all repressed energy, it builds up and becomes completely dangerous to the position that you are trying to hold. (An Open Life, p. 28-29)
:)

About suffering... Nobody escapes it. It is an experience of our mortality I guess. You know when we are little kids and we don't think about suffering at all? And then suffering pops up at a certain age. Then we go on to reconcile this fact. At least that is my take on the subject.
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

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Post by Clemsy »

My understanding of this story, personamyth, which I believe comes from the Koran, is similar to Neo's.

Lucifer was in love with his love for god.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

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Post by Evinnra »

IMHO, the human race inflicts suffering upon itself. Suffering begins with the infliction of the “law of man”. If we were to just follow “The Way”, I feel that all suffering could be eliminated. - Neoplato
Since it takes purity to know the Way, only a few sages do. The second best thing is then to find those who know the Way and follow those.

Lucifer was in love with his loving God? I thought it was God who loved Lucifer the most - before the fall.
'A fish popped out of the water only to be recaptured again. It is as I, a slave to all yet free of everything.'
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Post by Neoplato »

Evinnra wrote:
IMHO, the human race inflicts suffering upon itself. Suffering begins with the infliction of the “law of man”. If we were to just follow “The Way”, I feel that all suffering could be eliminated. - Neoplato
Since it takes purity to know the Way, only a few sages do. The second best thing is then to find those who know the Way and follow those.

Lucifer was in love with his loving God? I thought it was God who loved Lucifer the most - before the fall.
My take, metaphorically speaking, is that Lucifer, who had wisdom and was the "shinning star", thereby making him the beloved of God, The lesson here is that wisdom turns to folly when you deem yourself wise and others as inferior to your wisdom.

Here we have a seperation. Not caused by a jealous God throwing Lucifer out on his ear, but by Lucifer, the enlightened one, refusing to accept that a bunch of "hairless apes" could ever become an equal to himself.

But this is reflected in society. The nobles consider the populace a bunch of hairless apes that are expendable. And these nobles have decided they have the right to play "God" and affect the lives of millions of people based on their silly whims.
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Post by Clemsy »

Lucifer was in love with his loving God? I thought it was God who loved Lucifer the most - before the fall.
Why would one negate the other? Unless you're reading that wrong, Evinnra. You have misquoted what I said and possibly misinterpreted it? I said Lucifer was in love with his love for god.
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Post by Evinnra »

Neoplato wrote:
Evinnra wrote:
IMHO, the human race inflicts suffering upon itself. Suffering begins with the infliction of the “law of man”. If we were to just follow “The Way”, I feel that all suffering could be eliminated. - Neoplato
Since it takes purity to know the Way, only a few sages do. The second best thing is then to find those who know the Way and follow those.

Lucifer was in love with his loving God? I thought it was God who loved Lucifer the most - before the fall.
My take, metaphorically speaking, is that Lucifer, who had wisdom and was the "shinning star", thereby making him the beloved of God, The lesson here is that wisdom turns to folly when you deem yourself wise and others as inferior to your wisdom.

Here we have a seperation. Not caused by a jealous God throwing Lucifer out on his ear, but by Lucifer, the enlightened one, refusing to accept that a bunch of "hairless apes" could ever become an equal to himself.

But this is reflected in society. The nobles consider the populace a bunch of hairless apes that are expendable. And these nobles have decided they have the right to play "God" and affect the lives of millions of people based on their silly whims.
That is one very legitimate way of taking it, I agree, but there are other ways of interpreting the same story. For the time being, mine is the interpretation that God loved Lucifer the most hence the fall was inevitable. :(
'A fish popped out of the water only to be recaptured again. It is as I, a slave to all yet free of everything.'
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Post by Evinnra »

Clemsy wrote:
Lucifer was in love with his loving God? I thought it was God who loved Lucifer the most - before the fall.
Why would one negate the other? Unless you're reading that wrong, Evinnra. You have misquoted what I said and possibly misinterpreted it? I said Lucifer was in love with his love for god.
Sorry Clemsy but I did not misquote what you've wrote, I knew you meant that Lucifer was in love with HIS love for God. That is why I put it that way; 'Lucifer was in love with his loving God.'
'A fish popped out of the water only to be recaptured again. It is as I, a slave to all yet free of everything.'
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Post by Clemsy »

I don't see the connection. Please explain?
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Post by Cindy B. »

'Lucifer was in love with his loving God.'
I get it, Evinnra. :)

I also see how confusion could pop up, so, Clemsy, consider her sentence this way: "Lucifer was in love with his loving (of) God."

Right, Evinnra?

Cindy
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by Clemsy »

Semantically quite different. Evinnra's 'loving' is an adjective for god. But could explain the confusion...
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

personamyth
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Post by personamyth »

Lucifer being God's greatest lover, refuses to bow before 'man' because he can ONLY love God...and not 'man'

Well...what I'm feeling now is that Lucifer needs to be loved by 'man' and as we ourselves are 'man,' have the capacity to understand the pain that Lucifer has..and from that, we won't have hate towards him, but rather, asking ourselves, 'Why Lucifer? for the Love of God, you choose to abandon your lover? who is our maker as well?

I feel the pain in this story because, an example that struck me most is recollecting stories where a couple started off as great lovers. A loves B, and then they get married. Throughout the whole journey in life, somethings happen, and suddenly B, the husband cheats on his wife by having other girls in his life. While A, his wife who loved him becomes heart broken. I'm talking about wives that 'really' loved their husbands...and that they did everything for them, taking care of them when their sick, getting into some kind of trouble, etc...but still the 'man' cheated on her because he just doesn't have the same kind of love for her anymore. For B, the husband, despite feeling guilt and remorse for causing so much pain for his wife, still spends his money, and gives happiness to this other woman...
In a sense, this is similar to the case where, man, the husband is acting like the role of the God..but he doesn't give happiness to others, rather, the husband ended up bringing pain and suffering to others, his wife, her parents, etc. For the husband's point of view, he would see his angry wife like Lucifer, another jealous woman who doesn't seem to care why she's making her husbands life boring and tiring, and a woman who's just living off her husbands financial assets. It turns out..'mankind' have their own complicated stories...we're not fit to metaphorically portray ourselves similar to God...although we possess a similar form to him.

Would you say, the cheated wife is like Lucifer? and the husband like God? who's given another life to another woman other than his wife???
...What God did, was creating 'man,' who's capable of experiencing both pain/suffering and joy on earth, while Lucifer to me, accepts only his bliss and joy loving God, but denies suffering and pain. It feels like when we as 'man' accepts only our joy and bliss with ONLY the things we love, and avoid the sufferings or 'bad' things in life. Its kind of like the example of 'spoiled' youths in the eastern culture, when young kids are born into rich families, and uncapable of handling troubles in life because they've got their powerful rich parents guarding them their whole lives. Until these kids learn about self independence, and without relying their luxuries of life from their parents, they will never experience the suffering and pain of growth in life, improvement, maturity..etc...To me, that is Lucifer, like the dragon that Campbell mentions.
Lucifer ONLY sees his own bliss and joy in loving God, but denies suffering and pain for loving God. What God was trying to convey, is that he or she is not just only made of joy and bliss, but also pain and suffering. The pain of creating this world in seven days, the pain in trying to led mankind in the path of his 10 commandments but still being led astray, the pain of creating the 'imperfect' man. It is through the testament of suffering in life, that God gives us 'man' the choice to make in seeking him out.
There was a film that I can't recall the name of it, but in this film, Jesus was confronted by Satan in the Garden of Gethsemane, where Satan was tempting Christ to deny God and his Kingdom in order t escape the pain and suffering that Christ was about to endure. Christ became fearful, after what Satan shown him of all the wars that mankind had waged among themselves in the name of God, but Christ said to Satan that, if this is the way that mankind choose, then so be it. WOW…
"I know where I'm going and I know the truth, and I don't have to be what you want me to be. I'm free to be what I want." - Muhammad Ali (The Greatest)

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Post by Evinnra »

Cindy B. wrote:
'Lucifer was in love with his loving God.'
I get it, Evinnra. :)

I also see how confusion could pop up, so, Clemsy, consider her sentence this way: "Lucifer was in love with his loving (of) God."

Right, Evinnra?

Cindy
Yes, Cindy, that is what I meant. Loving God as the act of loving by Lucifer, or as Clemsy says, an adjective - a quality of - Lucifer that he had towards God.

About jealous wives and husbands, I don't know, but about loving I can add that precisely this force that Lucifer and God had which I think separated them so violently. Love, as we well know, is something that can NOT be force-felt. I can't go grab someone by the hair and scream;' love me love me , do as I say'! ( At best I could get a faked-love response, at worse I could make this person positively loath me.)
Love is a force that is either there or it is not there. God loving Lucifer the most had consequences contrary to the nature of God's feelings and so did Lucifer loving God so willfully had just as contrary a consequence to follow it. In my previous post I wrote; 'for the time being' my understanding of the myth is that it was God who loved Lucifer the most that caused the fall, but it was not attempting to contradict the claim that Lucifer's own willful imposition of love on God that made Lucifer fall.
'A fish popped out of the water only to be recaptured again. It is as I, a slave to all yet free of everything.'
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