Jung (In The Weeds): Part Three

Do you have a conversation topic that doesn't seem to fit any of the other conversations? Here is where we discuss ANYTHING about Joseph Campbell, comparative mythology, and more!

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JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Cindy B. wrote:Both those links are so-so in my opinion, James, and there are some inaccuracies. Just so you know. :)
Thanks Cindy; I knew you could give me a better insight on this. :)
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Post by Andreas »

Cindy B. wrote:Jung was trained as a doctor and described himself as a scientist who practiced "medical psychology" as it was called in his day. He was also interested in comparative mythology and comparative religion so followed a scholarly track, too. :)
Thanks Cindy.

Still Jung opposed the scientific establishment of his time, no? or am I misunderstanding this one? Also it seems to me that a lot of his concepts blur the line between what is known and what is never to be discovered as Campbell said in POM.

Cindy what about this link? What do you think of it?

http://www.jrhaule.net/evol-atp/Synch+Sci.html
Last edited by Andreas on Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:53 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Post by Andreas »

No scientific theory can be proved.
A scientific theory works or it does not. - Rom
But how do you know it works if it cannot be proved? Maybe we can move these questions though in another thread so we dont derail much this one?
I sincerely hope you are trying to be amusing here Andreas ... mainly for your sake. - rom
You are right, I do it mainly for my sake, my sanity. Because I want my life to mean more than a simple process. :P
Well that leaves us economics I suppose? - rom
Huh?
Last edited by Andreas on Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:04 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Cindy B. »

Andreas wrote:Cindy what about this link? What do you think of it?

http://www.jrhaule.net/evol-atp/Synch+Sci.html
Most definitely you're into the weeds with that one, Andreas, and Haule, a quality link. 8)
Last edited by Cindy B. on Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by Andreas »

Cool. :)

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Post by CarmelaBear »

Enjoyed the Haule piece. Thanks Andreas.

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Individuation (Part 2)

Post by JamesN. »

Cindy.

Since there has been some discussion on several threads about ideas that ( may ) be linked to the term " Individuation "; for instance on Carmela's " Bliss " thread with the " Chrysalis " and " Belly of the Whale " links you provided; and if my understanding is correct; in the " Story " thread with " Life Writing " and " Epiphany " as a couple of examples; I thought since this is a Jungian concept I would offer this link and see how these ideas fit with this understanding as a process that people may at least in some way be subconsciously utilizing in everyday life. ( Although I realize as a formal application it is consciously initiated; say as in therapy. )

http://jungiancenter.org/essay/componen ... ividuation

For instance if I am discussing an experience in the " Story " thread; ( What is the human motivation or " Why " is one doing that? ); or if I am going through an emotional reconstruction: Is this process in a general sense part of the mental mechanics that human beings navigate with to extract direction and obtain self-understanding? In fine: " How does the process of ( Individuation ) fit and work within these conversations in a general layman's sense of the idea? " ( Given of course the understanding that many people come to these forums for different reasons. )

I realize this may be a rather limiting attempt at such broad and deep subject matter; but it just seems that in these discussions across the board time and again this interplay concerning this concept of ideas is what is taking place; ( that is if I understand the concept properly ). In " Pathways to Bliss " for example I think I am understanding the idea of identifying one's ( personal myth ) as a vehicle of the process; and of the " self's journey to wholeness " or " self-realization " as the objective. But is this in fact a subconscious but normal societal interplay that is taking place all the time around us? Say like the " Net-of-Gems " Joe refers to as a sort of metaphorical reference to an interplay of inter-connected consciousness. ( May be a little bit of a stretch here on that one. :wink: ) ( From all indications I'm seeing in a loose general sense the answer seems to be " Yes ". ) I guess in one way what I'm asking is: ( Is the search for " meaning " related to this idea? ) :idea:


Here is an example:
Jung felt this process of “self-realization” was a “natural transformation,”[9] something that “the unconscious had in mind,”[10] something meant to develop our individual personality.

Jung also regarded “individuation” as a solution to what he considered one of the major problems facing modern people: How to link up consciousness to the unconscious; how to bring our ego mind (consciousness) into a working relationship with our inner terra incognita, our unknown inner terrain.
I'm not trying to cross the ocean in a rowboat here; just trying to get a better general grip or understanding of this. :? :)
Last edited by JamesN. on Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:01 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by CarmelaBear »

When individuals have the freedom and the means to accept and acknowledge their own individuality, then the necessity to do so can seem evident enough, but there are forces at work that universally prevent self-realization and individuation.

Social constraints bend us in their direction. The wealthy success, who is never able to recognize or acknowledge the price of achievement. The captive who lacks a separate will, except through the tender mercies of keepers and inmates. These, and so many other actual and symbolic or unconscious circumstances, are universally repeated in myriad forms as part and parcel of the human condition.

We are individuals who are members of but one species on only one planet. This one place is permanently altered by our presence here, as one individual, misguided humanity. Humanity is the embodiment of a worldwide set of demands and forces. Our social roles are symbolized by the universal pressure to reproduce, compete for every kind of resource, and thereby risk the destruction of our collective existence.

How can the individual imagine overcoming the absence of the head and the heart of our whole species? As individuals, are we in the process of adapting to our latest social dysfunction by failing to perceive a common moral authority and a practical, proactive, effective leadership?

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Post by Cindy B. »

Hey, James.

I'll come back to this topic later today, but for now I want to make a comment about this link that you offered on What Is Individuation?:
This page, Part I, is quite good, I think.

However, in the introductory paragraph the author says, "...Then we’ll examine several components of it, specifically the locus of control (Part II), the locus of authority (Part III) and the locus of security (Part IV)." Just so you know, should you decide to track down those additional writings, keep in mind that Jung himself did not conceptualize in terms of these various loci; that is, apparently the author goes beyond the bounds of Analytical Psychology in Parts II-IV.

Back soon! :)
Last edited by Cindy B. on Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by Andreas »

First of all, thanks for the link James. Really nice one.

Cindy, I read the whole thing (parts 1-4), and although the author decided to give his own names for some concepts, he also offers quotes and references from Jung and Edinger and my first impression is that it fits the context of analytical psychology. But... that's just me.

So..If you have time give it a look and let us know if it is indeed within the boundaries. :)

For anyone interested. Here is the link for the rest of the article. Just scroll down.

http://jungiancenter.org/bloglist
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

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Post by Cindy B. »

Thanks, Andreas. I'll take a look at those pages, too, when I have time. :)
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by JamesN. »

Andreas wrote:First of all, thanks for the link James. Really nice one.

Cindy, I read the whole thing (parts 1-4), and although the author decided to give his own names for some concepts, he also offers quotes and references from Jung and Edinger and my first impression is that it fits the context of analytical psychology. But... that's just me.

So..If you have time give it a look and let us know if it is indeed within the boundaries. :)

For anyone interested. Here is the link for the rest of the article. Just scroll down.

http://jungiancenter.org/bloglist

Thank you Andreas;

The input is most definitely appreciated. I'm not as far along as alot of folks on this but this help is making the efforts much easier. I'll read it as soon as I can get to it.


Cheers :)
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

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Post by Andreas »

I do have to say though, that I find it funny and paradoxical, that in part 3 which tries to explain how authority works and how we can value our own individuality, three quarters of his/her two page essay is filled with quotes and references to Jung.

:P
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

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Post by JamesN. »

Hey everyone.

I came across these from the same website this morning getting ready for work. ( Cindy; I believe we have encountered some of this material before. ):

http://jungiancenter.org/essay/chosen-f ... os-journey

http://jungiancenter.org/essay/jungs-he ... rm-heroism


Here is another connected area I have not had a chance to read along with parts II & III of Cindy's and Andreas's suggestions:

http://jungiancenter.org/essay/jung-ena ... d-examples

Also I'm wondering about how the term " Integration " by itself fits in with this particular aspect. ( I'm reading and trying to absorb as much of this material as I can while going to work; so bear with me. :wink: )
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Post by Cindy B. »

Hey, guys.

My apologies for not getting back here yesterday as promised. Another storm went through my area, and the wind gods knocked down power lines in my neighborhood. My electricity was restored a couple hours ago. Finally...

Anyway, this morning I did read each of the links provided, and I have a favor to ask: To maintain a semblance of order in this thread, for now let's stick with the topic of individuation. (We can take another look at enantiodromia if you'd like, James, afterward. Okay? Thanks.)

Regarding the essays on individuation offered so far, I happen to like these two best: What Is Individuation? (Part I) and Jung’s Hero: The Form of Heroism in the New Era. Always in the back of my mind is the thought of how best to link Jungian material to Campbell's ideas, and these two essays, I think, are good starts for that.

And now I must leave again for a while. I have doctor appointments, so when I get back, James, I'm going to respond to your original post that initiated this conversation. Thank you for bearing with me, all.

:)
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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