Is there such a thing as an absolute value??

What needs do mythology and religion serve in today's world and in ancient times? Here we discuss the relationship between mythology, religion and science from mythological, religious and philosophical viewpoints.

Moderators: Clemsy, Martin_Weyers, Cindy B.

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Do we integrate certain values from transcendent sources?

Yes
4
36%
No
2
18%
We cannot know
5
45%
 
Total votes: 11

Roncooper
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Post by Roncooper »

James,

Thank you for the thoughtful comments. I don't have an issue with anything you said. All I can say is that I seemed to be obsessed with organizing Maya. My actions remind me of a line from an old song by Tanya Tucker, "I'm rearranging chairs on a ship that is going down."

I have the highest respect for good science, but the intellect is prone to two major errors. The first is self deception and the second is overreaching. Self deception is corrected by the scientific method, but calling out scientists when they overreach is everybody's job. What I am talking about is this new scientific school that preaches "If it can't be understood it doesn't exists." DNA or our brains are the "source" of everything. This is overreaching, especially when the speakers are "experts."

I believe that the intellect is one of our dimensions and sensual creativity is another, and I want intellectuals and artists to honor each other as equals. I may be an intellectual but it doesn't hurt my science to honor transcendent beauty. I may have to accept that I may never understand it or its power, but I can take comfort from the fact that I live in the intellectual domain that is absolutely essential.

I believe the same relationship needs to exists between intellectuals and the willful, the awakened ones, and those who follow their hearts. There is a quote from Shakespeare I like.

"To be wise and love is beyond man's might."

I think we need to accept our multidimensional nature and the fact that others emphasize a different dimension with different goals and values. But I don't believe that it is all relative. Schools of thought, with great wisdom, have developed around these dimensions and we need to learn from the past.

The Flower Duet was an intuitive choice. I wanted something that was exquisitely beautiful, but upon reflection I think there is more to say about this choice.

Everyone on that stage has heard beautiful sounds and was inspired by them. They are spending countless hours trying to recreate that beauty. How does this fit with the idea that they are DNA machines? The inspiration is external. It comes to them through their ears.

The lead singers happen to be beautiful women, who could guarantee the survival of their DNA by acting cute. Instead they dedicate their lives and countless hours of effort to create beautiful sound.

I think the "source" of this man's behavior is sound not DNA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8oEUVh9 ... o1KHr-b-CA


Returning to the main topic of how we can get good politicians. I agree with you that religious codes of behavior have been destructive and a great source of suffering, but that does not eliminate the need for a code. My dream is of a code of honor not a code of salvation. I dream of a conference attended by our best warriors, both male and female, who hammer out a code over the weekend. Of course it would need to be debated and reviewed. It could be the American code of behavior and we could demand that our politicians follow it.

That's enough organizing Maya for one day.


Ron

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Ron that is a great post.
I believe that the intellect is one of our dimensions and sensual creativity is another, and I want intellectuals and artists to honor each other as equals. I may be an intellectual but it doesn't hurt my science to honor transcendent beauty. I may have to accept that I may never understand it or its power, but I can take comfort from the fact that I live in the intellectual domain that is absolutely essential.

I believe the same relationship needs to exists between intellectuals and the willful, the awakened ones, and those who follow their hearts. There is a quote from Shakespeare I like.

"To be wise and love is beyond man's might."
I just wish there was more listening and less shouting.

Cheers


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRCk49vcjjY
Last edited by JamesN. on Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Hey everyone.

I thought about Ron's post as I retired last night and on awakening was reminded of this post from the " Music " thread in the ( Awakening ) forum that seemed to touch on part of what Ron was talking about. His point that Shakespeare or music or any of these ( vehicles ) that open up the sense of " wonder or awe " of ( living in the world ) seems to activate a dimension within the subconscious of illumination that the normal run of experience doesn't quite reach. Perhaps this quote from Carl Jung and the link that Cindy provides might help to illustrate one of the reasons.

Nermin wrote:

Quote:
Music is dealing with such deep archetypal material, and those who play don't realize this.

Carl Gustav Jung



With no intention to disarray, let-me share here a Jung quote about music.
Any thoughts, my friends?

Here I'm offering information to put this quote in context: Carl Jung and Music Therapy

http://carljungdepthpsychology.blogspot ... erapy.html

:)
As referring to Billymack's original theme of " Absolute Value " perhaps ( the search for meaning ) and Joseph Campbell's quote concerning the " Rapture of Being Alive " might also play into this discussion as well. :idea:
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Roncooper
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Post by Roncooper »

James,

Thank you for the link to "Beau Soir." I haven't heard it before, and need to listen to more music like that.

Thank you also for relating the discussion to Jung. The more I learn about him, the more I realize how special he was.

In fact what I call the dimension of inner reality are similar to his functions of the psyche. He said there were four. The intellectual, emotional, sensual, and intuitive functions. To these four I add willfulness.

To return to this thread, each does relate to absolute values. The intellect relates to reason and truth, emotional to unconditional love, sensual to beauty, the intuitive to happiness and self realization, and the willful to honor and excellence.

I map Jung's functions in the following way. Intellect to intellect, emotion to heart, sensual to artistic creativity, intuitive to consciousness, and willfulness to the will.

Of course this can't be explained in a paragraph, but I like to think of these dimensions as being like the fingers on my hand. It is certainly better to have five fingers rather than just one, but unlike my hand, where there is a brain in charge, these dimensions compete with each other. When we can get them to work together then we really get somewhere.

In Hinduism they have the five Yogas which are also similar. They also have chakras and they talk about the battle of the organs, which Campbell discussed. My view differs from Hinduism in that I don't believe in a hierarchy with consciousness at the top. At this time I believe each dimension is equally necessary and valid.

Today society is diverse as never before and each dimension is represented by a disorganized community. My dream is of a society that recognizes this complexity and sees that it is a good thing. Perhaps then we could tone down the shouting and start helping each other. We could stop putting each other down and instead discuss our issues.

Ron

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Post by Roncooper »

To sum this up, this is a new approach that moves beyond the old destructive stereotypes like the masculine-feminine stereotypes and provides a neutral ground for the various personality types. It can provide arguments against devaluing or demonizing certain personality types.

It could help establish a middle ground in the battle between intellect and religion, and so on.

I'll stop there and return to my cave.

It is a privilege to be able to vent to a group so well versed in subjective reality.

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Ron:
I'll stop there and return to my cave.

It is a privilege to be able to vent to a group so well versed in subjective reality.


Before I forget:
Thank you for the link to "Beau Soir." I haven't heard it before, and need to listen to more music like that.
I meant to post this and got sidetracked; the " Impressionists " are pretty cool. Here is a small sample of bits and pieces of some of their various works:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewgvSvm_EwQ

If I may be allowed to add further to this; ( sometimes when I see all the madness going on all around me: especially within the media; I realize not having this extraordinary refuge and all the special people in it to come to; the world would be a much sadder place indeed ). You bring a welcome touch of decency and sanity here my friend.

Cheers
:)
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Roncooper
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Post by Roncooper »

James,

Thanks for the link. I will dive in. :)

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Ron:
To sum this up, this is a new approach that moves beyond the old destructive stereotypes like the masculine-feminine stereotypes and provides a neutral ground for the various personality types. It can provide arguments against devaluing or demonizing certain personality types.

It could help establish a middle ground in the battle between intellect and religion, and so on.

Hey Ron; this was an interesting quote I spotted on the homepage just now. It seems to fit at least part of the direction you were mentioning where the topic is pointing towards concerning " absolute values ".:)
Is the conscientious teacher -- concerned for the moral character as well as for the book-learning of his students -- to be loyal first to the supporting myths of our civilization or to the "factualized" truths of his science? Are the two, on level, at odds? Or is there not some point of wisdom beyond the conflicts of illusion and truth by which lives can be put back together again?


Joseph Campbell
Myths to LIve By
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Clemsy
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Post by Clemsy »

Ooh. Thanks, James. Haven't seen that one in a while. :-)
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

Roncooper
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Post by Roncooper »

James,

Thank you for the Campbell quote. Can you tell me where you found it. It would be good to read it in context.

I was motivated by Joseph Campbell. He said we needed a new mythology for the whole world. I decided that while I wasn't very good at creating stories, I could provide a framework for a new mythology. That is what I have done. It is one possible solution for a world mythology. There are probably better ones, but I am not aware of them.

I thought this framework would be useful for creative types to generate new stories, but It turns out that when I accept my multidimensional nature I see the value of the old myths. The Madonna represents my heart, Venus my sensual nature, Hector my will, etc.

I wish Campbell had not used the word illusion but I accept that that is how he saw it.

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Post by JamesN. »

Hey Clemsy; yes it is one I have always really liked; although I can't seem to remember where I first heard it. ( I always enjoy those quotes of Joe's that appear when you first visit the homepage; they always seem to catch one's train of thought and steer it toward a cool thought provoking direction. Many a post has been influenced by these little gems; at least for me. )

Ron the homepage had it listed in " Myths to Live By ". As to what page or topic in the book this might be a David Kudler question if no one else knows.

In reference to your interest it occurs to me you might be interested in " The Mythic Image ". He wrote this out of the Bollingen Series if I am correct; and it is a kind of assimilated overview of world mythology that he was asked to do. He wrote this after he edited Heinrich Zimmer's works and the Papers from the Eranos Yearbooks, also in Bollingen Series ( But be forewarned; it is a massive 500 pages of text and pictures that spans the width and breadth of the world's mythologies followed by another 40 pages of notated references which few but he could pull off. He was not recognized as one of the world's foremost mythologists without reason. One literary critic referred to it as a sort of philosophical ' Whole Earth Catalog. ' It might give you some ideas concerning your thought processes on your theme you were describing. ( Just a suggestion. ) The thing is he wrote so much material; a lot of which most folks in the general public are not really aware of; and if I understand correctly the Foundation is very deeply involved in bringing much of this new unpublished material out. ( Clemsy and David would certainly know alot more about this than I would. ) The Atlas Series of the World Mythologies might also be another thought worth considering; but I'm not sure of their availability at this point or if they are still even in print. A trip to the foundation bookstore is always a good idea for these kinds of subjects.

At any rate maybe some of these ideas might be of some help.

Cheers :)
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

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Post by Myrtle »

Ron the homepage had it listed in " Myths to Live By ". As to what page or topic in the book this might be a David Kudler question if no one else knows.
Hi James,

The quote is in Chapter I "The Impact of Science on Myth" (Page 11 - Paperback/1972).

Myrtle

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Post by JamesN. »

Thank you Myrtle for your thoughtfulness. Your help with these locations is always " very " appreciated. 8)
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Post by JamesN. »

Incidentally I went over to the bookstore link below: ( click on the " Campbell's Published Works " section on the list to the right; got to the 3rd page and all of the Atlases are listed there as well as " The Mythic Image ". )

http://www.jcf.org/new/index.php?categoryid=123

Hope this this helps. :)

____________________________________________________________


At the risk of overindulgence here is a link to one person's review of this material which I think sums up quite nicely one of the things that draws so many of us to his work and here to this website. 8)
Customer Reviews

Most helpful customer reviews

9 of 10 people found the following review helpful.
5The magnum opus of one of the world's leading scholars on comparative mythology
By Darby
[Review written May 2004]

Series Review: Historical Atlas of World Mythology

Where to begin ?

Joseph Campbell, without exaggeration, is probably one of the 100 greatest scholars of the 20th century. He was a genius, a polymath, a world-travelling polygot, a brilliant teacher and a master storyteller - all in one. On top of that, he was also one of those exceedingly rare individuals who was able to stand astride the disparate realms of both academia and mainstram culture with equal aplomb ... and be warmly embraced by both. Take a brief glance at the list of his works (at the Joseph Campbell Foundation, or my own site) and you can't help but be amazed that a lone human being could cover such breadth, and such depth, in such a broad field in a single lifetime.

His influences have been far reaching and profound - George Lucas considers himself to be a student of Campbell, and openly credits him as the source inspiration for the whole Jedi Knight / Force motif in Star Wars.

Campbell's two most well known works (amongst the general public anyway) are "Hero with a Thousand Faces" and "The Power of Myth". However, among academics, his magnum opus is considered to be The Historical Atlas of World Mythology (henceforth 'HAoWM'). It is the crowning achievement of a long and incredibly prolific career - much of it published posthumously, shortly after his death.

It's a 4 volume book (actually it's 2 volumes, each with 2 parts) published in a single-spaced tri-column oversize 11" x 16+" softcover format, and it's packed to the gills with hundreds of numbered footnotes, endnotes and numbered illustrative photos & art ... all of them meticulously and exhaustively enumerated in the bibliography.

The HAoWM is stupendous in it's breadth, depth, and ambition - it is nothing less than an exhaustive documentation and analytical discourse on the entire sweep of Human mythology, across ALL peoples, nations and times ... all the way back to the earliest known traces of humanity's very existance. It's very dense, toothsome reading, and I'll try to give you a feel for why.

Campbell is a wonderfully patient and helpful mentor, but as I've already mentioned above, he's also very polymathic, and although he goes out of his way to help his students and readers to follow along by providing ample numbered endnotes and footnotes and explanatory digressions, the material is still VERY dense and far roaming ... and it requires a fairly decent amount of effort (and polymathy) on the part of the reader in order to keep up.

Taking just half (1/2) of one (1) page at random, the writer, while elaborating on some subtle & profound point or observation that he's patiently trying to get across to the reader, roams freely & comfortably amongst a huge array of topics and references ... from hardcore archeology & oral traditions (includuding his own persona travels to distant tribes in polynesia or northern japan), to philosophy (i.e., references to plato, aristotle, tribal eldars like Black Elk, etc), to world history, to psychology (i.e., references to Freudian & Jungian archetypes), to art history (i.e., paintings and commentary by people like Cezanne, and people who research and comment on said artists, like James Joyce), to epistemology, to philology (ex: hindu and buddhist terms given in Indian & Japanese terminology, just for completeness) ... and all of THAT is squeezed into HALF of ONE PAGE. It's toothy stuff, and it requires frequent pauses and re-readings and skip-aheads & skip-backs to & from to the footnotes and bibliography ... and sometimes to a dictionary. However, don't let me scare you off from making the attempt, because the effort is very rewarding and highly recommended - but it takes effort and commitment, and Campbell's exhaustive references give you most of the waypoints you need to follow along.

Like most of the more worthwhile endeavors in life & artisty, you get out what you invest in ... modest efforts are usually rewarded with modest results, and greater results usually require correspondingly greater effort. Reading Campbell is very similar.

It's a rich, fulfilling, and deeply illuminating journey of discovery.

The world would be a much better place if more people could spend the time to study works like this one.

[ADDENDUM: It's tragic that the author died before he could finish his 4-volume magnum opus.]
__________________________________________


Addendum: ( I just had a somewhat moment of synchronicity just now. ) A few minutes ago I looked up something in the introduction of the " Power of Myth " and stumbled across this very same quote we have been discussing: ( page viii, 1st paragraph ). And while I was following a somewhat similar train of thought concerning Mythology the almost " mystical nature " of the moment did not escape me. So in regards to this particular discussion I might suggest concerning ( absolute value ) it might be that perhaps between these lines of this and of course other conversations in these forums lies the answer we are all seeking to this song of a " New Mythology " that lies waiting to be discovered; whose understanding will hold us; and whose melody we will sing and dance to. For as Joseph Campbell said: " Mythology is the Song of the Universe - The Music of the Spheres ".


To me there just isn't another place like these forums. :D


___________________________________________________


( And while I'm at it I might as well post the brief product description of " The Mythic Image " for anyone else that is interested ):
Product Description


A paperback edition of Campbell's major study of the mythology of the world's high civilizations over five millennia. It includes nearly 450 illustrations. The text is the same as that of the 1974 edition.

Mythologist Joseph Campbell was a masterful storyteller, able to weave tales from every corner of the world into compelling, even spellbinding, narratives. His interest in comparative mythology began in childhood, when the young Joe Campbell was taken to see Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show at Madison Square Garden. He started writing articles on Native American mythology in high school, and the parallels between age-old myths and the mythic themes in literature and dreams became a lifelong preoccupation. Campbell's best-known work is The Hero with a Thousand Faces (1949), which became a New York Times paperback best-seller for Princeton in 1988 after Campbell's star turn on the Bill Moyers television program The Power of Myth.

During his early years as a professor of comparative religion at Sarah Lawrence College, Campbell made the acquaintance of Indologist Heinrich Zimmer, a kindred spirit who introduced him to Paul and Mary Mellon, the founders of Bollingen Series. They chose Campbell's The Mythic Image as the culmination of the series, giving it the closing position--number one hundred. A lavishly illustrated and beautifully produced study of the mythology of the world's high civilizations, The Mythic Image received a front-cover review in the New York Times Book Review upon publication. Through the medium of visual art, the book explores the relation of dreams to myth and demonstrates the important differences between oriental and occidental interpretations of dreams and life.

Cheers :)
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Roncooper
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Post by Roncooper »

James, Myrtle,

Thank you for all the information. I haven't looked around this site very much. There is so much I have to discover, and so many beautiful ideas to enjoy.

I visited the Opus Archive and saw Campbell's library. It is amazing how driven he was. I think his athletic and competitive background helped. In "The Power of Myth" series, I remember him saying his peak experiences came during competition. I wish I had that energy.

Back to absolute values. For me life has it's physical-survival component that is all about DNA and brains, and the earth, and the sun, and the space between the earth and the sun, but there is another aspect. The one where we manifest examples of absolute values. One day we create something beautiful, do something honorable, or love something, and this beauty, honor, and love are added to who we are.

We are not just our DNA and brains. We are also what we have done and what we experience. I may be just another old man, but I know for certain that my life was driven by beauty as much as it was by DNA.

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